Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

  by Jeff Smith
 
Moved and merged the three threads in NYC Area-Wide to NYCT. Jamesen, thank you for your very thorough of a project, alternatives, and costs. Yeoman's work!
  by Jamesen
 
RandallW wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 6:34 pm I did not use COVID as an argument -- I pointed out that the trends suggesting that any rail service requiring people to travel to Manhattan from Brooklyn is of decreasing value was occurring before the pandemic and is not an aberrant effect of the pandemic. I didn't discuss work from home -- I discussed commuting patterns within Brooklyn itself, not the commuting patterns of those who don't commute. In 2019, ~86K people commuted between home and work without leaving Brooklyn, compared to ~51K who commuted between Brooklyn and Manhattan.
There were 2.59 million people in Brooklyn in 2019, so citing a total of 137k commuters seems starkly lacking in factuality. But, let's say that your proportions are accurate. There are subtle, but substantive, differences in the groupings you cite. First, in the 86k who do not leave Brooklyn, what of portion of that number is going to the borough's CBD? Just like the street system of the borough (former city) radiates from its origin, the rail transit lines, radiate from it as well.

Secondly, the 51k you cite going to Manhattan, are going to a relatively concentrated jobs location, to which expenditures for mass transit has public rewards. Whereas the 86k (or that portion not going to Brooklyn's CBD) are going to widely dispersed job locations. You can't afford mass transit, certainly not heavy rail infrastructure, for every commute possibility; which takes us to the next point.
The proposal put forward by MTA as the most logical is a light rail proposal, I don't know why you have a "heavy rail isn't the answer" posture, when heavy rail isn't being discussed by the MTA -- they are proposing to use light rail.
No, they are not. They are proposing to use LRV's in a mostly heavy rail prepared guideway. Light rail was dubbed light rail, based on the degree of infrastructure cost needed to implement it; this often means utilizing vehicles which are narrower and more flexible than those used in metro rail applications. Their (the MTA's) reasoning for using the LRV's, in a heavy rail infrastructure, is its ability to circumnavigate the All Faith's Cemetery without 'heavy' rail infrastructure.

Americans (as much of the world) are clueless about the terms light and heavy rail. The terms were born in America in the 80's, being a gerrymandering and bait and switch attempt to get public approval for rail proposals, and it worked, and has left many confused ever since.

Though having proffered a cost effective and non-disruptive means of getting through the cemetery, my redesign proposal still goes with the LRV rolling stock, as it both suits the need and has other benefits.
The T1 line in the Île-de-France (the first post-WW II light rail in Paris) wasn't designed to fill in transit deserts, it was designed to avoid the need to take trains into Paris to travel between suburbs already well served by heavy rail going in the wrong direction (i.e., into Paris, not suburb to suburb) because there was a recognized demand for that direction of service.
I presume you mean T3, not T1.
Image

This is true, and I wrongly rushed to assume the assertion I made. I think it simply seemed too good of an example to make a point, and yet it isn't at all a good comparison. You see, the T3 lines are, on average, a mere 2.75 mile from the center of Paris, which is less than the distance between the Financial District and Midtown Manhattan. On the other hand, the IBX route, on average, is roughly 6 miles, from what is considered NYC's city center. Indeed, the G-Line is more of a comparison to Paris' T3.

Even if choosing to use the circumferential to Brooklyn's CBD, the IBX averages 4.75 miles out. And, the mileage distance comparisons don't even indicate the magnitude difference, it is more exponential, like the seismic earthquake scale.
The census tract maps of jobs per acre suggest that along the IBX route, the highest density of jobs on that route are in the vicinity of the Brooklyn Army Terminal (BAT), western terminus of the IBX as the MTA proposed. So you are considering that someone in the transit desert part of the route would be best served by taking the IBX only to 16th St to transfer to what to get to the BAT?
Honestly, I think you've just made the case that there is no cost justification for the IBX, at least at a heavy rail cost. If the BAT is the largest jobs concentration on the whole line, then you're proving my point, that this is NOT a mass-job-destination line. Should the taxpayers spend ~$4 Billion dollars to make a special rail line just for the handful of workers at the BAT who live near the Bay Ridge branch freight corridor?
I also see that the area least served by transit along the MTA's proposed IBX route is also the area with the highest per capita income (suggesting that people who won't use the IBX to commute are moving to that area or that by truncating the IBX as you propose, it is only there to subsidize the movement of the richer Brooklynites at the expense of others).
Really?

Randall, I don't doubt that your intentions are good, but understand, so are mine. And, honestly, it is good that you put forward your arguments, as it is a chance to dispell some misunderstandings, though I personally hate this part. I enjoy the problem solving part, not at all the convincing part.

The reach to Bay Ridge is more achievable once the MTA has become convinced that the CHTP is a no-go, today or tomorrow. Frankly, with the Gateway project's doubling of tracks beneath the Hudson, there is more than enough capacity to operate freight overnight; actually feasible even today. Special electric locomotives would be employed, and a reverse move connection onto a rehabilitated Montauk Cutoff, all makes the CHTP a moot point. It even obviates the need for the once a day train from the freight float operation, with only freight customers along the branch still to service.

Even freeing up a single track envelope along the remaining Bay Ridge portion makes service all the way to the BAT doable, without a 1/2 Billion$ expenditure to reconstruct 11 road bridges. But, night service to customers is virtually a must on any version of an IBX, as customers lie on either side of the corridor. Therefore, the two track envelope which exists today should be available for passenger service during the normal times for MTA rail service.

Make your voice heard at the MTA, or at least to the lame politicians.
Last edited by Jamesen on Mon Sep 02, 2024 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by Jamesen
 
Jeff Smith wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 11:04 am Moved and merged the three threads in NYC Area-Wide to NYCT. Jamesen, thank you for your very thorough of a project, alternatives, and costs. Yeoman's work!
Thank you, Jeff! VERY much appreciated.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Jamesen wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 3:23 pm The reach to Bay Ridge is more achievable once the MTA has become convinced that the CHTP is a no-go, today or tomorrow. Frankly, with the Gateway project's doubling of tracks beneath the Hudson, there is more than enough capacity to operate freight overnight; actually feasible even today. Special electric locomotives would be employed, and a reverse move connection onto a rehabilitated Montauk Cutoff, all makes the CHTP a moot point. It even obviates the need for the once a day train from the freight float operation, with only freight customers along the branch still to service.
Could this also allow for through NJ-New England freight service without Selkirk (Oak Island to Cedar Hill for
example)?
  by Jamesen
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 5:17 pm
Jamesen wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 3:23 pm The reach to Bay Ridge is more achievable once the MTA has become convinced that the CHTP is a no-go, today or tomorrow. Frankly, with the Gateway project's doubling of tracks beneath the Hudson, there is more than enough capacity to operate freight overnight; actually feasible even today. Special electric locomotives would be employed, and a reverse move connection onto a rehabilitated Montauk Cutoff, all makes the CHTP a moot point. It even obviates the need for the once a day train from the freight float operation, with only freight customers along the branch still to service.
Could this also allow for through NJ-New England freight service without Selkirk (Oak Island to Cedar Hill for
example)?
It's certainly possible. Corridor space exists to connect to the CSX Hellgate Line, from that point, rather than feeding through the Fresh Pond yards, but I question the efficiency (and sanity) of moving freight onto an island (even two), anywhere, in order to pass it back through to the mainland, let alone when it is the most densely populated area in the U.S. I can't get over how New Yorkers treat the Hudson River as if it were an ocean.
Reading up on the 'onetime' Poughkeepsie rail bridge, it is like a perfect example of the craven private sector and public sector management in this country. Actions responsible for the bridge's demise should be studied in college, as examples of gross negligence and malfeasance.
  by lensovet
 
What's with the obsession of getting people to work?

Weekday ridership, even on the "in-office" days of Tu-Th, has still not recovered for any of the NYC-area transit agencies. Weekend ridership, otoh, exceeds pre-COVID levels.

Never mind that getting people out of cars, and giving people who have no other alternative a way to get to places without having to go through Manhattan, has a value too. Not just getting people to jobs.
  by RandallW
 
Paris a little larger than Manhattan (40 vs 33 sq mi), with a slightly higher population than Manhattan (2.10m people vs 1.69m), but is part of Ile de France in the same way that Manhattan is part of NYC. All public transit within Ile de France, including Paris is run by RAPT, in the same way that all public transit (except the PATH and JFK Airtrain) is run by the MTA. Brooklyn is 70 sq mi with 2.74m people), so the population densities of Paris and Manhattan are much higher than the population density of Brooklyn.

The T3 line in Paris roughly follows an earlier heavy rail passenger line, La Petite Ceinture, which was closed in 1934 and is mostly abandoned and torn down or turned into linear parks (a small part of it is used by the RER C subway line), and runs entirely within Paris. So the T3 is more akin to deciding that a light rail line needed to be built in a loop around Manhattan than any route intended to allow people to travel between the outer boroughs without going though Manhattan.

I specially called out the T1 line, which runs through an area of the Ile de France that has densities more similar to Brooklyn in the area where the IBX is proposed than Paris has, and which, from the planning stages was intended to provide a similar benefit (allowing mass transit passengers to avoid going into central business districts to travel between adjacent suburban areas (e.g., the departments surrounding Paris, the outer boroughs of New York).

The daily travel numbers I cite are the daily travel numbers the MTA cites in the IBX study, but I did make a mistake -- those are the numbers for people commuting from the study area alone and expected to use the IBX.

Using ArcGIS with census data, a block by block density map of the study area shows that the highest populations densities are mostly just north of the western end of the line in Sunset Park.

All that said, I am taking issue with your assertion that primary purpose of this line (or of any line) that doesn't transit a central business district should be to function as a feeder line to get people to lines that do go into central business districts, and that therefor travel across Brooklyn in patterns not already served by subways do not need to be provided for, since clearly there are mass transit lines, like the T1 in Paris that were built explicitly to enable people to avoid the CBD if that is not their destination.
  by Jamesen
 
RandallW wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:19 pm All that said, I am taking issue with your assertion that primary purpose of this line (or of any line) that doesn't transit a central business district should be to function as a feeder line to get people to lines that do go into central business districts, and that therefor travel across Brooklyn in patterns not already served by subways do not need to be provided for, since clearly there are mass transit lines, like the T1 in Paris that were built explicitly to enable people to avoid the CBD if that is not their destination.
Suit yourself; you ignored that the two aren't comparable, but, like I said, I hate the convincing part.
  by Jamesen
 
lensovet wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:12 pm What's with the obsession of getting people to work?

Weekday ridership, even on the "in-office" days of Tu-Th, has still not recovered for any of the NYC-area transit agencies. Weekend ridership, otoh, exceeds pre-COVID levels.

Never mind that getting people out of cars, and giving people who have no other alternative a way to get to places without having to go through Manhattan, has a value too. Not just getting people to jobs.
At reasonable cost, yes, but not at ANY cost, the kind that goes to alleviating situations where masses of people are all converging on a central (usually) job dense area at the SAME time. Brooklynites have EVERYTHING they need in their own neighborhoods, or can find it in the Brooklyn CBD, like people do in most cities all across the world. They don't need to go to another city Queens to get their prescriptions filled, or shop at a Target.
You have shown NO APPRECIATION for my finding ways to drastically cut the cost of implementing, at least, the most useful parts of the idealized IBX route, to a point where a reasonable cost per rider can be obtained. Why don't you FOCUS on that?!
I live in a city of 140k. I cycle and use the bus when helpful. Everything I need is within a mile or two, I don't need a rail line to give me the option of shopping at a Target, visiting a gym, dining at a Thai restaurant, seeing a movie, or visiting a doctor, on the other side of town. But, if you and others whine and cry long enough, your politically corrupt parents will cave, because grossly over paying for transit infrastructure is what we do the U.S., and do you know why? Because the local special interest can cash in big time on infrastructure construction, whereas most technologically sound systems for (actually) operating service on a rail line are foreign based. But, I digress.
  by RandallW
 
Technically sound to reduce costs or not, eliminating 1/4 of the line because you believe that people shouldn't do jack other than work outside the immediate neighborhood they live in, isn't going to increase the return on investment in that line, on the contrary, it will reduce it. The fact of the matter is, that in Europe, the US, and elsewhere, public transit systems have shown growth outside of commuting hours well beyond what was forecast in 2019, but have shown that travel for classic commuting purposes remains below pre-pandemic levels. If you wish to discount the travel that is happening, then good luck engaging in any planning activity, because what you propose won't be used and will cost more per passenger than those plans made by people who do pay attention to why and where people travel.

Do not that since the MTA needs space to store equipment on this line, and the only place they already own that they could store that equipment in is at the 65th St yard. One of the unique things about owning property in the U.S., is that, even when exercising eminent domain, just compensation at market value is required to be given (this is not necessarily the case in European countries), which often means the most expensive single part of building new infrastructure is not the actual construction, but the purchase of property for that purpose, which is why the IBX is proposed to run almost exclusively on MTA-owned property.

Your arguments that you are making a less expensive proposal are not backed by any numbers that you've shared, which means you've engaged in an interesting engineering exercise (how else could this be designed), but haven't shown that your proposals aren't actually more expensive than what the MTA is already proposing to do. So fine, whine about how Americans may enjoy a Thai restaurant and may want to use public transport to get to one, but when suggesting how we should spend our investment dollars, back up your arguments with numbers.
  by Jamesen
 
I can't figure out your agenda; keep writing.
  by lensovet
 
That's pretty rich coming from someone who wrote more than all the other posters in this thread combined.

That said, I'm not sure if you're aware, but people often have a reason to go outside their immediate neighborhood for things other than going to work, and not everyone is able bodied enough to use a bike. I guess we shouldn't bother with making it possible for those people to see their friends in, *gasp* another "city" like Queens?

I have no idea where you live but it's clearly not New York, so it's kind of weird that you seem to be hell-bent on imposing your worldview on the people who do live here. Pro tip: if you want to actually convince other people of something, you have to engage in meaningful conversation with them instead of just dismissing them as whiners.
  by Jamesen
 
The foregoing posts, Parts I, II, and III, leave at least two important system elements with which to facilitate, that of a new option for a storage and maintenance yard, and 'turning' the tram at the southern terminus point.

First, a reminder as to why we CHOOSE to turn the train/tram. The 100% urban rail experience in NYC is with a metro rail mode. That mode is characterized by ~10' wide vehicles which are long and not flexible. They hold more people, but also have 6 double doors in each car, even though most stations are constructed for right-side platforms. It makes it easy for changing direction, as the long cars would require a sizeable area in which to loop, otherwise.

Trams are so FOREIGN to New Yorkers, rather Americans, that they simply aren't even on their radar. While we have (or are creating) a heavy rail corridor, the use of the LRV is still quite suitable, and preferred, for this application (which wasn't true for the GLX in Boston, but I won't go there, right now). The flexibility of the LRV affords service options which metro (or conventional) rail modes do not.

And yet, there is still the fact that the narrower LRV's (trams) lose some space, per car, vs. the metro cars; an argument that metro-rail ONLY proponents enjoy using. SINCE, there is no functional need to have doors on both sides of the vehicles outside of the ease of changing directions at the termini, it behooves us to limit the doors to one side, thus allowing an increase in seating, on average, by 20%.

Easily, at least, 12 additional seats can be added in each car (4 per eliminated double-door), which is more beneficial than just for peak periods. It is always a comfort factor, the number of seats available when passengers board a car. Thus, simple looping of trains on each end provides this full time benefit for passengers. And, trams, especially articulated ones, are turned with far, far, less space that it would take for metro rail cars. And too, all of the seats can face forward, for many an additional benefit.

As noted in the post initially introducing this characteristic, the one directional trams afford more than just the benefit of additional comfort for passengers (which should be enough), it also eliminates the perpetual cab changing, at the end of each line run, by drivers; i.e. less stress. Thus, a one time infrastructure step, facilitating turning around at each end, provides several benefits. And in this case, one of those, the northern terminus, provides the, still additional, benefit of a superior station/stop location, as seen by graphics/photos in the first posting of this series.

SOUTHERN RETURN LOOP

Now, we need a loop at the southern terminus, which might not seem so easy, considering the narrow corridor space. But, as good fortune would have it, past decisions provide us the space needed.

Image

The southern terminus (at least for IBX Phase I) will be the E. 16th Street Station, or the B/Q Line (aka Brighton Line). Using a turn radius of, no less, than 85' is desired, but the corridor's width does not provide for this. It just so happens, that on the west side of the Brighton Line ROW, as it crosses the Bay Ridge rail corridor, is housing for a traction power substation, in fact two, one no longer used.

A new building with equipment was installed, date unknown, beside the older one, which stayed working until the new one was brought online. The older equipment was removed, and the building left to ruin. The latter purchase of property just south of the old substation, provides the public property space needed to turn the tram, without any additional property buys.

Image

The former building's foundations should still be quite suitable for the substation application, needing only a rehabilitation of the building, and then movement of equipment. Even the installations of new substations run less than $1M.

By moving the substation equipment to the site of the old substation, it clears the space needed for the 'return' portion of the terminus loop.

Image

The loop is a quick descent past the E. 16th Street Station platform, that will turn underneath the existing freight and space for a second freight track, passing well beneath the dead-end portion of E. 15th Street, as it more slowly rises back to the station's outbound (or Queens-bound) platform. Both platforms will be lowered by ~4 feet, with a track descent and ascent east of the station, in order to better faciliate the loop vertical clearances.

While the full project is within the property owned by NYC, a courtesy purchase offer could be made for the end residential property/building, which is actually two residences. The work to create the loop could be done without too much inconvenience, so an inconvenience fee could be extended as well, sans a property sale.

The B/Q tracks, and station platforms are bridged over the freight corridor, but even so the crossing was noted as a reconstruction in the PEL report. The track redesign proposed by this series, likely could have mitigated that work to one of excavation, if the bridge is as designated in the PEL report's graphic representations.

However, the return portion of the loop would be beyond the apparent south end of the current bridges span, and indeed would need to pass through its support structure, so here work to replace the bridge(s) will be needed.

Image

It can be done without disrupting service on the Brighton Line, at least for any signifcant amount of time.

Here is a time lapse video of the work to put a new freight rail bridge into place, and then excavating beneath it for a roadway underpass; a much larger project . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AB6ReooXsU&t=125s

STORAGE & MAINTENANCE

Now, the need (or, depending on your viewpoint, preference) to truncate the IBX routing to the portion most cost justified (in order to get any of it implemented), leave us with sourcing a new location or locations for the functions of storage and maintenance.

The writers of the PEL report very generalized an area for these functions, proffering an area as much as 8 acres in size, which is more typical of a major metro rail yard. The need here is not only less, it should be (or can be) cost effectively much less.

The MTA (with all of its divisions) owns a lot of acreage in Brooklyn. With that many land resources, some of it is bound to become less productive (acre for acre) over time, and could be more productive with some reallocation.

Image

The best prospect is the above Linden Shops parcel. A very important function occurs here, fabrication of rails, and track rehabilitation. There is no dismissing the contribution of this facility to the MTA's operation. However, is there not some degree of over allotment of space occuring here. Indeed, not only is this facility 17.5 acres in the main, it has 6.6 acres as a backyard space just to its north.

Image

Just to the east of these MTA parcels, is a yard which stores trains from several lines, in an efficient use of 6.5 acres, that includes a maintenance building. Also, these trains are almost twice the length of IBX consists.

Image

An efficient use of a small portion of the Linden Shops Yard for an IBX facility would render this, which keeps virtually all existing buildings and all functions of the present operation intact, leaving plenty of space for its operations, retaining a 1/3 mile long track length.

Image

A couple of points:
First, it is important to recognize that the functions of Storage and Maintenance are not co-dependent. They are functions independent of each other, and can have locations apart. Thus, if necessary, overnight and off peak storage of trains (i.e. a parking lot), can be had in one location, while a maintenance facility for routine upkeep can be had in another.

Secondly, the flexibility of the LRV's to handle far, far, smaller radius curves, than one of NYC's standard metro rail cars, allows for many more options in locating suitable parcels for supporting functions. Thus, the above suggestion for an 'all-in-one' facility is just one of many possibilities. However, it appears to be a very effective use of existing MTA property, and a sublimely located parcel, functionally.

Lastly, should an extension to Bay Ridge occur in the future, it would provide additional storage opportunities at the site currently proposed in the PEL for such facilities. Yet, I can't help but to insert a personal note: Despite the adjacent public uses, a waterside site, such as the rail head held by the MTA, which overlooks the busy harbor of the nation's largest city, the world's most renown skyline, and the iconic Statue of Liberty, should have far greater prospects than use as a train parking lot, but that's just me.

The last part of this series will be about a potential of extending the northern end of the IBX, but not along the CSX corridor.
Last edited by Jamesen on Thu Sep 05, 2024 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by lensovet
 
Speaking of "keep writing" – America figured out long ago how to remove the need for loops by having double-ended trains. Crazy concept.
  by Jamesen
 
lensovet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:08 pm Speaking of "keep writing" – America figured out long ago how to remove the need for loops by having double-ended trains. Crazy concept.
For you . . . keep reading.
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