• The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

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  by The EGE
 
Why no M3s - do they not fit, or just not worth it since they're on the way out?
  by Head-end View
 
Thanks gamer4616 for the interesting update. Two questions: Echoing the above post, why will M3's be prohibited in GCT? And why will some of the new signals be left of the track? Does it have to do with the curvature of the tunnels?
  by Pensyfan19
 
I would think the SW1001s would still be allowed in the Grand Central Tunnels on an emergency basis in case if an electric set broke down or crashed, or if maintenance work was needed on the branch. This relatively rare operation would essentially be the same as the SW1001s on the Atlantic Branch, so wouldn't they be allowed on the "Grand Central Branch" for limited use such as those?
  by DaveBarraza
 
photobug56 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:15 pm...much of the cost of ESA is related to, supposedly, incompetence, lack of supervision, nepotism, massive numbers of workers without actual work to do, excessive tool spec requirements and the like.
Would you care to cite original sources for any of the above claims?
  by MNCRR9000
 
gamer4616 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:58 pm Some new information has popped up.

This is effective November 15th, 2021 as per General Order 703


Grand Central Terminal Branch has been added to the employee timetable, in the special instructions. It is not printed yet in the station pages. This is the first reference to Grand Central Terminal in the employee timetable.





Some information...

E10 locomotives, E15 locomotives, E20 (GP38's) locomotives, DE/DM locomotives, and M3 equipment are all prohibited in GCT. So M7/M9 only for GCT. This was assumed to be the case.


Station Tracks are listed as:
201-204, 301-304


GCT will consist of 6 Interlockings (GCT 1-6)


The upper level will have 2 "island" platforms with 4 tracks (201-204), and that will trail west into 2 "Tail Tracks" (T202 and T203 track)

The lower level will have 2 "island" platforms with 4 tracks (301-304), and that will trail west into 2 "Tail Tracks" (T302 and T303 track).

The way it looks, the tail tracks will be stub ended tracks that can fit one train west of the station (providing 4 yard tracks). Although, it isn't exactly clear from what I can see, how long these tracks are.

East of GCT, will be Plaza Interlocking. From there, trains can be routed east through 3 tunnels or a lead track to midday yard (next to sunnyside yard).



Similar to the East River tunnels, there will be automatic signals in the tunnels, with a bunch of signals left of the track in the interlockings and the automatics in the tunnels.

Thanks for the update. Also any update on what LIRR radio channels they are going to use?
  by freightguy
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:04 pm I would think the SW1001s would still be allowed in the Grand Central Tunnels on an emergency basis in case if an electric set broke down or crashed, or if maintenance work was needed on the branch. This relatively rare operation would essentially be the same as the SW1001s on the Atlantic Branch, so

wouldn't they be allowed on the "Grand Central Branch" for limited use such as those?
I think the LIRR has went as far as looking to retrofit some of smaller diesel equipment to fit in the new ESA tunnels. I was wondering if that's why they commandeered some of the SW1001's a few years back from New York and Atlantic Railway.

I could be wrong but I'm sure you're going to need some for of self propelled equipment that doesn't run off
electrical traction in that segment for emergencies, etc.
  by gamer4616
 
The entire territory is approximately 3.75 miles in length and falls under the jurisdiction and authority of the movement bureau.

Train operations are coordinated through the T.O.C. (Train Operations Center) which is comprised of Transportation Supervision, Block Operator (GCC), Stationmaster, Yardmaster, Usher, and Engineering personnel.


GCT - Grand Central Terminal
TOC - Train Operations Center
GCC - Grand Central Control (Block Operator)

Radio Channel 1 - GCT, TOC, and GCC
Radio Channel 2 - Movement Bureau
Radio Channel 3 - Midday Yardmaster / Block Operator
Radio Channel 4 - Midday Maintenance of Equipment Dept

All together, I'm counting 13 interlocking signals that are left of the track between Harold and GCT, and 6 automatic signals left of the track in the tunnels. Usually this is because of clearance or visibility issues.


Maximum Authorized Speeds
Station Tracks in GCT - 15 MPH
Between GCT 3/4 & GCT 5 - 30 MPH
Between GCT 5 & GCT 6 - 45 MPH
Between GCT 6 and Plaza - 60 MPH
Between Plaza and Harold - 45 MPH
Between Plaza and Midday Yard - 15 MPH


GCT and Midday Yard fall under the jurisdiction of the Section A Train Dispatcher

All station tracks are capacity 12 cars in GCT
All tail tracks are capacity 12 cars.



As far as equipment that is prohibited. I can be wrong, so this is just how I understand things:

It would relate to limitations of the equipment.

I can't find the specific height of the tunnels to GCT, but I think this would prohibit the DE/DM's.

The E10/E15/E20 - Not enough power for the grade? It does list multiple exhaust fans in the tunnels, so maybe in an emergency under train order (Form L) authority, we could see it.

The M3's - I believe it's due to the equipment and how it handles the 3rd rail. If you've been on M3's crossing through interlockings, you'll notice that when you're off of 3rd rail, the lights and everything goes off. Perhaps crossing over switches off of 3rd rail, going upgrade would create gapping issues and the potential to be stuck in the water.



The E10 locomotives are allowed in the Flatbush tunnels. I have only seen this once, following an accident in Atlantic Terminal, where an E10 was brought in to bring the equipment to VD Yard. All other engines are listed as prohibited in the Flatbush tunnels.
Last edited by gamer4616 on Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Forget about the LIRR M3s-they will never return to revenue service anymore.

As for 12 car M7 and M9 sets in GCT-that will be nice. You can only imagine how crowded those LIRR trains will not only get during the rush hour but also on weekends too. Passengers wanting to make weekend trips into Midtown to see the Rockefeller Center X-mas tree-if they can grab a train to Grand Central Terminal, than they will. It's closer. Many Broadway theaters are closer to GCT than they are to NYP.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
njtmnrrbuff wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am You can only imagine how crowded those LIRR trains will not only get during the rush hour but
also on weekends too. Passengers wanting to make weekend trips into Midtown to see the
Rockefeller Center X-mas tree and many Broadway theaters are closer to GCT than they are to NYP.
On that topic, ESA should be in service for Xmas 2022, assuming the target of late 2022 is met.
  by Head-end View
 
Thanks again gamer4616 for all the information. Re: the tunnel grades as regards the diesels and M3's, are the grades in the GCT tunnel steeper than in the Penn Sta.-East River tunnels?
  by photobug56
 
Lots of great info. I'd be curious to learn more about speed limitations in the tunnels (once clear of all the switches for GCT) and how much time we expect LIRR will predict being needed to get from Jamaica to GCT versus NYP, both non-stop.

As to the M3's, the issue keeping them out of GCT - don't they have the same issue at NYP? This is pure curiosity - I like the M3's.
  by ConstanceR46
 
Wasn't the plan a few years back not to retrofit but to buy a pair of entirely new protect engines?

As far as i understand, the tunnel dimensions are similar to NYCT ones - diesels cannot fit full stop.
  by Head-end View
 
Gamer4616, again with regard to those left-hand signals in the GCT tunnels, do you know what type of signaling will be used? RAS vs. either traditional color-light or yellow position-light?

LOL Not sure why I should even care being as I will probably never get to see them out the front windows of any train anymore. But I'm always interested in signals.
  by DaveBarraza
 
Head-end View wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:06 pm Gamer4616, again with regard to those left-hand signals in the GCT tunnels, do you know what type of signaling will be used? RAS vs. either traditional color-light or yellow position-light?
Don't have the full info, but AFAIK it's *not* position light, *not* RAS. They are three aspect signals.
  by photobug56
 
All the locos and cab cars have cab signals? So out out pure ignorance, why also have once in the tunnels? Also, I'm assuming that all the new trackage is PTC (LIRR version) equipped?
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