Swampoodle connection

It may be worth remembering that the PRR had no hesitation in stabbing a CH local in favor of the Broadway, the Congressional, or anything else destined west or south -- they just built recovery time into the schedule. One thing I wondered about when Amtrak reconfigured that territory was whether showing Approach Slow instead of Approach on the distant would permit a better cab-signal indication to save the locals a minute or two in approach to the interlocking.

ExCon90 wrote:It may be worth remembering that the PRR had no hesitation in stabbing a CH local in favor of the Broadway, the Congressional, or anything else destined west or south -- they just built recovery time into the schedule. One thing I wondered about when Amtrak reconfigured that territory was whether showing Approach Slow instead of Approach on the distant would permit a better cab-signal indication to save the locals a minute or two in approach to the interlocking.

Excon, before I left Septa to go to Amtrak,they completed the closing of North Philly for at least a year and if you were headed to CHW and was running under an approach slow or an approach, the cab signal indication is the same and thats an approach and regardless if you're coming up to a STOP SIGNAL or SLOW APPROACH, your cabs still drop to restricting half way thru the block approaching the home signal. Due to the curvature at the station, the track speed is 15 so I doubt higher speed crossovers couldve been installed and I always hated running to CHW because of the slow speed getting to the branch

Jersey_Mike wrote:Such a project would be rather contemptuous of Amtrak just spent a lot of money to resignal that part of the NEC to increase capacity for SEPTA and of the PRR which built that line to spite the Reading. SEPTA should remain mindful of its heritage and not allow PRR and Reading territories to mix except for the neutral zone of the Center City tunnel.

I think CHW branch riders don't even realize or care about the "heritage" of their railroad line.

Limited-Clear wrote:Interesting that it is considered by some that Septa is treated unfairly on Amtrak, lets face it it is Amtraks railroad, each evening the Septa train I am on is held at North Philly for a CHW train, then we get held for NJT if they are on our heels, and then we get held for the Acela, We don't complain about it as there is time that the general public doesn't see built into the schedule to allow for that, just because we sit and "let" another train go by doesn't mean we are treated less fairly, if it was your RR wouldn't you put your trains first and keep your passengers happy? yesterday trains were using the Berries that caused all sorts of mayhem at Girard, but we all got through with minimal delay. If you really want to see how hard dispatching is try your hand at a game call Sim-Sig (UK based but it will drive you nuts with mass confusion).

It's different when you are riding the railroad that has the power over who gets priority. It's different for SEPTA riders, who are at the mercy of Amtrak dispatching.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

DeltaV wrote:They are RIGHT next to each other...the connection was not made due to financial concerns, right?

It's not as easy as it looks on the map. There are issues of power supply and track capacity at 16th Street Junction besides the cost factor. (I suspect it might actually save operating costs thanks to fewer car miles on Amtrak.)

The difference is that 16th St is totally under the control of SEPTA. I can't see how CHW trains would overwhelm this junction.

16th street Junction on Septa's "Main Line" is an extremly important part of the RRD. With that said, I dont think that the CHW trains being routed onto the Reading side is a bad idea at all. It would be faster then negotiating the slow speeds of North Philly station, Lehigh interlocking and assoicaited slow speeds with coming and going.16th street Junction has been rebuilt during Railworks although almost to the same footprints and is fairly reliable but,,,,Oh I remember many a Friday Pm rush hours being screwed up because the RROC lost all control of 16th street or Wayne and service would be screwed royally.There is 1 PM dispatcher who works desk 3 that controls that area who will use this interlocking to its advantage and will cross many trains here just to keep them moving such as trains going to CHE will cross over to 3 or 4 instead of at Wayne because by the time it got to Wayne, there could be a conflicting move. In my opinion, He's probably the best dispatcher Septa has and good thing is, He doesnt use the autorouter.....

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:16th street Junction on Septa's "Main Line" is an extremly important part of the RRD. With that said, I dont think that the CHW trains being routed onto the Reading side is a bad idea at all. It would be faster then negotiating the slow speeds of North Philly station, Lehigh interlocking and assoicaited slow speeds with coming and going.16th street Junction has been rebuilt during Railworks although almost to the same footprints and is fairly reliable but,,,,

Silverliner is correct (as usual). Taking the CHW off of the NEC would put SEPTA in complete control of the line. It would also eliminate the Amtrak propulsion charges. The only station not served by the change would be North Philadelphia which is lightly patronized now. The line would pick up Temple. The CHW bridge over the Reading Main Line is slated for replacement anyway.

Clearfield wrote:

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:16th street Junction on Septa's "Main Line" is an extremly important part of the RRD. With that said, I dont think that the CHW trains being routed onto the Reading side is a bad idea at all. It would be faster then negotiating the slow speeds of North Philly station, Lehigh interlocking and assoicaited slow speeds with coming and going.16th street Junction has been rebuilt during Railworks although almost to the same footprints and is fairly reliable but,,,,

Silverliner is correct (as usual). Taking the CHW off of the NEC would put SEPTA in complete control of the line. It would also eliminate the Amtrak propulsion charges. The only station not served by the change would be North Philadelphia which is lightly patronized now. The line would pick up Temple. The CHW bridge over the Reading Main Line is slated for replacement anyway.

These are all good ideas for future implementation. Their very utility and logic is what virtually guarantees they'll never get done. SEPTA seems to have something of a chronic allergy to such creative & major work that would improve RRD service. I hope that this concept is able to beat the odds.

Bob, when is the CHW bridge over the 9th street branch suppose to get rebuilt? I havent heard that it was an upcoming project although maybe since this needs to be done then this connection should be reconsidered. Yes North Phila would lose service but you still have the trenton trains and people coming in from CHW who transfered to Amtrak or Trenton trains can be done safely in downtown Philly or at North Broad to North Philly

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Bob, when is the CHW bridge over the 9th street branch suppose to get rebuilt? I havent heard that it was an upcoming project although maybe since this needs to be done then this connection should be reconsidered. Yes North Phila would lose service but you still have the trenton trains and people coming in from CHW who transfered to Amtrak or Trenton trains can be done safely in downtown Philly or at North Broad to North Philly

I believe the project was slated for next year or the next, but with the funding problems, any date is unknown.

My concern is that the bridge may at some point be condemned terminating all CHW service until its replaced. The longer we wait on this stuff............

Port Jervis wrote:
The difference is that 16th St is totally under the control of SEPTA. I can't see how CHW trains would overwhelm this junction.

The increase in conflicting NB moves across 16th St. due to a lack of a grade seperated R.O.W outbound toward Norristown & CHW would make SB moves through the area more problematic.

Bill R. wrote:

Port Jervis wrote:
The difference is that 16th St is totally under the control of SEPTA. I can't see how CHW trains would overwhelm this junction.

The increase in conflicting NB moves across 16th St. due to a lack of a grade seperated R.O.W outbound toward Norristown & CHW would make SB moves through the area more problematic.

It would be no different then the conflicting moves that take place daily up top on Amtrak or even currently at 16th street Wayne, Jenkin or Carmel...

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:It would be no different then the conflicting moves that take place daily up top on Amtrak or even currently at 16th street Wayne, Jenkin or Carmel...

Except for how many there are.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:It would be no different then the conflicting moves that take place daily up top on Amtrak or even currently at 16th street Wayne, Jenkin or Carmel...

Except for how many there are.

Matt what Im saying is, if Wayne, Jenkin and Carmel can handle these conflicting moves then adding the CHW service thru 16th street isnt going to gum up the works as everyones worst nightmares might predict. The way it stands now with CHW trains running up the NEC, its slow speeds all the way, 15 mph divertive moves coupled to a 15mph curve at the station and if Amtrak can handle there trains plus NJT thru that situation, then adding the CHW trains thru 16th street shouldnt be a problem. Besides going thru 16th street and up a new connection will sure be alot faster then whats afforded to the passengers now

One possible solution is to simply build the connection and let trains run both ways. Just because CHW trains could be routed via the reading doesn't mean they can't also go via North Philly. You just build the connection with an extra interlocking. With this option SEPTA could also institute loop service.

The problem with the signaling is that when the interlocking was re-signaled Amtrak left the two #10 slow speed turnouts in place between tracks 1 and 2 and, 3 and 4. Trains heading off the branch get a medium speed route via the old 5 track.