Susquehanna Transfer question

MickD wrote: I really don't even advocate NYS&W service beyond Hawthorne.The connection to the Main Line is already in place and a new station wouldn't be needed.NJ Transit had all those surplus Comet 1 coaches that they sold to other transit agencies,some of which could have been put into use from either Butler or Newfoundland and had this up and running years ago.

Correct, they should have kept the Comet I's and used them for other system expansion or even sold them to CMSL, but what engines do they have to pull them?? From what I hear NJT is still short on motive power, specifically diesel units... Unless ACES fails, then that would free up at least 4 P40's.

oknazevad wrote:Just a minor note, the DMUs planned for the NYSW are not light rail type, and therefore can be run with heavy frieghts. Largely needed so they can share the Paterson-to-Hawthorne Passaic River bridge, which is single track. The real reason for the Hawthorne-to-Hackensack service is to provide local service within Paterson.

Why bother with the new DMU's if traditional diesel push-pulls can be used? Or is something preventing that?

blockline4180 wrote:

MickD wrote: I really don't even advocate NYS&W service beyond Hawthorne.The connection to the Main Line is already in place and a new station wouldn't be needed.NJ Transit had all those surplus Comet 1 coaches that they sold to other transit agencies,some of which could have been put into use from either Butler or Newfoundland and had this up and running years ago.

Correct, they should have kept the Comet I's and used them for other system expansion or even sold them to CMSL, but what engines do they have to pull them?? From what I hear NJT is still short on motive power, specifically diesel units... Unless ACES fails, then that would free up at least 4 P40's.

They don't even have to keep Comet I's, all they need to do is keep the Comet III's.

As for a shortage of diesel units, they shouldn't have retired the GP40-FH units, which are only 20+ years old. And if the dual modes work out, that might free up a few straight diesel locos.

Port Jervis wrote:

oknazevad wrote:Just a minor note, the DMUs planned for the NYSW are not light rail type, and therefore can be run with heavy frieghts. Largely needed so they can share the Paterson-to-Hawthorne Passaic River bridge, which is single track. The real reason for the Hawthorne-to-Hackensack service is to provide local service within Paterson.

Why bother with the new DMU's if traditional diesel push-pulls can be used? Or is something preventing that?

The concern is with tying up the many grade crossings the Susie-Q has as it passes through Paterson. An 85-foot DMU can fit between them while even a single car push-pull would have be about 140-150 feet long.

As for the bus service, one thing to realize is that Paterson's population is highly transit-dependant, so a higher-speed, dedicated right of way mode can only improve service for the people of the city (NJ's third largest). From the standpoint of an agency whose purpose is to move people, that is not a bad thing.

I agree that, ultimately, the line should be extended to Butler and Hoboken, and the plan is to extend it in the future. But starting with the "core" of the line, that is to say the part that is likely to have the most boardings and alightings is logical.

Did NJT or anyone propose an unofficial timetable for stockholm to hoboken? Please, all corrections welcome, but if memory serves me correctly, the NYS&W crosses the Main at around Mile post 20, give or take. Rt 515 crossing is mile post 50. At frieght speeds that puts you in patterson in an hour. Current NJ timetables from paterson to NYP run ABOUT 45 min. With improvemnts to the 30 mile stretch of line between hawthorne and Stockholm, there should be no reason why you cant run a two-seat route to Mid town in 90 min flat.

I'd agree that a dedicated right of way service would be an improvement if it serviced Paterson's primary business district,but why would someone take a two seat ride into downtown Paterson when any of the available bus lines that parallels the route gets one there without a transfer?? Plus the bus from Paterson to Hackensack stops at the Garden State Plaza.Whereas service from Butler/Newfoundland would have patronage from NYC bound commuters from the get-go.Another drawback I think is the locale of Broadway station.It's rough enough around there in daylight why would somebody who didn't have to want to transfer there.Especially after dark.

[quote="MickD"]I'd agree that a dedicated right of way service would be an improvement if it serviced Paterson's primary business district,but why would someone take a two seat ride into downtown Paterson when any of the available bus lines that parallels the route gets one there without a transfer?? Plus the bus from Paterson to Hackensack stops at the Garden State Plaza.Whereas service from Butler/Newfoundland would have patronage from NYC bound commuters from the get-go.Another drawback I think is the locale of Broadway station.It's rough enough around there in daylight why would somebody who didn't have to want to transfer there.Especially after dark.[/quote]

Who said anything about tranfering in paterson? For NYC bound commuters the two seat transfer would be at Seacaucus. The Butler/newfoundland trains would simply use the hawthorne connection and travel the main line terminating in Hoboken. Connecting service to midtown at seacucus. Total trip time from Stockholm to mid town should be 90 min.

Granted, it is true that there is a NJ transit bus that parallels the route. Have you ever taken the bus?
1. The Stockholm bus ADVERTISES a 90 min ride to midtown. Sure, if you on the 5am bus and the 8:30 pm departure, more often than not it will take 90 min. During rush hours its taken me 90 min on a bus to get from PABT to Giants stadium. If you had the option of a train or bus in stockholm, when it comes to keeping with the timetable, what would you chose?
2. Those bus seats were designed for small children. Now, as a grown adult sitting in the window seat with another grown adult sitting next to you, if you had to chose between 90 min on a bus or 90 min on a train what would you chose?

Rail offers more options. There are people driving down 23 in the morning that refuse to take the bus, but they would get on a train everday.

There is supposed to be a brand new station built at the Hawthorne Junction on Wagaraw Rd.,across the street from The Front Porch for the Hawthorne to Hackensack service. I'd be very surprised if you got the kind of patronage from that new proposed station that anywhere nears the investment that will be made building it. It will be the only place where you'll be able to transfer directly to commuter rail .If you're from Paterson why would you spend the time on a connection there when you can transfer in that city to any bus line at Market St ? This is essense a train to nowhere. Downtown Hackensack doesn't have the business climate that will support it, and that commercial district is not coming back.Too much competition from Garden State Plaza and Riverside Square. That was my point about there being no need for a transfer to be built anywhere were the starting point for reviving The Susquehanna from the west at Butler/Newfoundland, rather than this ill advised NJ Transit project in it's current incarnation. As to my having taken the bus in Paterson,since 1968 I have taken it from every direction over the years ,very freqently to transfer to Main Line trains.. Three to four times a week when I worked for Sher Distributours in the early 1980's on Pennsylvania Avenue.Hence my inquiry awhile back to blockline as to whether or not Chappie's was still there.I frequented that joint often. I also traced the the Paterson City Branch on foot around that same time.Now there , were nation's economic outlook better and and the right of way not built on, is where service with DMUs might have made sense,had it run all the way down through North Bergen to Hoboken with stops also at Maywood and Rochelle Park. This just doesn't.

[quote="MickD"]There is supposed to be a brand new station built at the Hawthorne Junction on Wagaraw Rd.,across the street from The Front Porch for the Hawthorne to Hackensack service. I'd be very surprised if you got the kind of patronage from that new proposed station that anywhere nears the investment that will be made building it. It will be the only place where you'll be able to transfer directly to commuter rail .If you're from Paterson why would you spend the time on a connection there when you can transfer in that city to any bus line at Market St ? This is essense a train to nowhere. Downtown Hackensack doesn't have the business climate that will support it, and that commercial district is not coming back.Too much competition from Garden State Plaza and Riverside Square. That was my point about there being no need for a transfer to be built anywhere were the starting point for reviving The Susquehanna from the west at Butler/Newfoundland, rather than this ill advised NJ Transit project in it's current incarnation. As to my having taken the bus in Paterson,since 1968 I have taken it from every direction over the years ,very freqently to transfer to Main Line trains.. Three to four times a week when I worked for Sher Distributours in the early 1980's on Pennsylvania Avenue.Hence my inquiry awhile back to blockline as to whether or not Chappie's was still there.I frequented that joint often. I also traced the the Paterson City Branch on foot around that same time.Now there , were nation's economic outlook better and and the right of way not built on, is where service with DMUs might have made sense,had it run all the way down through North Bergen to Hoboken with stops also at Maywood and Rochelle Park. This just doesn't.[/quote]

who cares about people from paterson? The few paterson people that would/could use the service on the Newfoundland to Hoboken service is negligible. The NYSW service would benifit the people of Sussex county, and along the rt 23 corridor.

nyswfan wrote:who cares about people from paterson?

Bill Pascarell, for one. He's been a strong advocate of this service. And I agree with his reasoning. Paterson residents are more dependant on public transportation than most in the state. The principle idea behind this service pattern is to provide a quicker way to get between points in the city while giving a new draw to the areas near the stations.

The few paterson people that would/could use the service on the Newfoundland to Hoboken service is negligible. The NYSW service would benifit the people of Sussex county, and along the rt 23 corridor.

The problem with this reasoning is that it is oriented to the end point of Hoboken, which Paterson already has a connection to, and ignores the intended purpose of the service, which is principly a cross-town route for Paterson. There is definately potential for service from Newfoundland or Sparta to Hoboken via the Main Line, but that is a seperate idea and service. The use of the Hawthorne to Hackensack portion of the NYSW for the cross-county service doesn't preclude the future Main Line routing, but right now that's not being pursued.

Precisely, the option for service west of Paterson is always there. My point was merely that it would've made more sense to pursue restoration of commuter rail west of Hawthorne first,as I believe there's a guaranteed patronage.

MickD wrote:Precisely, the option for service west of Paterson is always there. My point was merely that it would've made more sense to pursue restoration of commuter rail west of Hawthorne first,as I believe there's a guaranteed patronage.

Well, I certainly don't disagree that the west of Hawthorne service would get riders, apparently NJ Transit sees more value in additional, local service in the state's third largest city.

Honestly, both are quite valuable, and I know that NJT, internally at least, views the Cross-County as a "phase 1", a term they mentioned at the public info session that I attended at East Side High a few months ago. The feeling I got was that they do plan on extending it further out, both east and west, but decided to start with the most heavily urbanized "core" of the line, because of highest potential ridership. I don't have the numbers, but I do believe they are right about that.

That's encouraging to hear if NJ Transit is serious about restoring service beyond that Hawthorne to Hackensack corridor. Whatever skepticism I'd have is the NJ DOT has proposed restoring service west to Butler and beyond so often in the past and it's never come close to fruition for one reason or another.
I could see commuter rail on both these segments but I do think for it to work you'd need to bring it from Paterson east into North Bergen.Run the west end down the Main Line with only stops at Market Street and Secaucus.Unless that old Caldor site in Hawthorne is going to be used for commuter parking there's no real sense to build a transfer station there.