STEAMTOWN Discussion

Mr. Rowland brings up an interesting idea. Why not contract/farm out the steam locomotive/train ride to another operator?

The National Park Service seems to be pretty good at maintaining the facility, and filling it with displays, exhibits, and artifacts.
They don't seem to be all that good at organizing railroad rides. . .

So let the park service (or whoever Steamtown falls under) handle the displays and static things (which they seem to be good at), and let someone else who knows/specializes in railroad operations handle the actual railroad.

"To Each their Own."

Maybe leaving the railroading to someone else would be a good thing?

I don't know that it would free up funds, but it might free up volunteers to be able to work on parts of Steamtowns collection of equipment - even if its just painting and rustproofing here and there.

It might also be cool to try and have more interactive displays at Steamtown - as I said before, the place seemed a little sterile and WAY too quiet for a "roundhouse" setting. It would be cool if they did something with the crane (a demonstration of lifting something or other), or showed people how you start up a steam locomotive. I know it can't always happen, but railroad equipment is designed to MOVE, and, in my opinion, therefore should be experienced in an active setting. Whatever you do, you need to somehow convince people to come back and visit again, or suggest to other people that they visit.

Maybe getting people back IS as simple as getting a better ride and letting Steamtown focus on repairing and making their collection presentable again.

3rdrail wrote:I would agree with you, Otto, if Steamtown were just a "Not for profit" privately-run museum. However, as a "National Historic Site", I would think that money would be available for maintenance. For an American icon as important as the steam locomotive, there should not be too much difficulty in pursuasive budgetary politics if the right persons are in control.

Unfortunately, a museum full of rusty old trains smells like a big ol' porkbarrel project to anyone not connected to the hobby. There was already a huge dustup back in 1995 over the money awarded to Steamtown NHS for startup... don't look for the governement to step in again.

If we want to restore these pieces, Steamtown has to enter into partnerships with historical societies to act as fundraisers and project managers. I think there's a whole bunch of B&M people involved with the B&M restoration...

I have never gotten a good answer from Steamtown management about why engines like Frisco 1522 can't spend a couple years down here getting a good workout in the Poconos...

-otto-

The B&M is 3713 being restored at Steamtown with a partnership with the lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS. It will be the first steam locomotive to be fully restored at Steamtown.

From reading this thread, I can't really say Steamtown is a failed mission. Sure they could do things better or different but in my few years as a railfan, I have seen Steamtown improve. Last year they planned several longer excursions that all sold out. (E. Stroudsberg, Delaware Water Gap, Tunkhannock Viaduct) Then they had their first railfest. They did have problems (#2317 splitting a switch and #3254 stalling at Devils Hole Curve) but hey for a first time try at it, they had good attendance and are planning another one this year. The Tunkhannock Viaduct trip was featured on our local news station and the newspaper. WNEP used their skycam helicopter to film the trip and it looked great. It seems Steamtown is picking up the pace in these last few years and who knows there could be more improvements coming.

I don't have any information concerning their internal workings but it does seem one problem is the staff that works on and maintains the locomotives. #2317 is already down to yard use only and if #3254 goes down, they have no steamer to use. It has to be a challenge to keep these old steamers rolling and its not like you can order parts for them anymore! They probably just don't have enough people available to work on the equipment.

As an above post said, steamtown could have been a pile of scrap rubble instead of what they have now.

Mike

mikeexplorer wrote:The B&M is 3713 being restored at Steamtown with a partnership with the lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS. It will be the first steam locomotive to be fully restored at Steamtown.

Thank you, I forgot that the LWV Chapter was involved.

http://laurellines.org/3713/sec-3713.php

-otto-

Steamtown has produced a few good things, the cutaway 0-6-0 is one of them, and it is well worth the trip to Scranton just to see that locomotive. While the conversion has often been described as a "mercy killing" of a locomotive that was unsalvageable for any further operation, it is a fine example of what can be done with a tired piece of equipment and a lot of time, effort, and creativity. For many decades I visited museums to see locomotives sitting out in the back lot that are rusting hulks and wondered why the organizations didn't section them to make educational exhibits out of them, particularly if there are other examples of the type preserved elsewhere in operable condition. I wonder who will be the next to do a cutaway steam locomotive, or a visible diesel. It is a much better use for the equipment than sitting out in the yard as a graffiti covered pile of rust until it finally gets scrapped.

MX

Having the greatest possible mission scope consistent with accurately presenting the history gives you the widest appeal to both the public and to the younger generation of professional railroaders who are now almost totally diesel oriented.

MX

Otto Vondrak wrote:

mikeexplorer wrote:The B&M is 3713 being restored at Steamtown with a partnership with the lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS. It will be the first steam locomotive to be fully restored at Steamtown.

Thank you, I forgot that the LWV Chapter was involved.

http://laurellines.org/3713/sec-3713.php

-otto-

I am a member of that chapter, that helped my memory <grin>

Anyway, they have planned another railfest this year and another trip over the Tunkhannock Viaduct (no doubt will be sold out) SO maybe Steamtown is starting to pick up ... more .... steam?

Mike

(1)Yes, Steamtown is operating a special train on CP, 19 miles each way from Scranton to the Tunkhannock Viaduct, on September 6, 2008. And, yes, it has already sold-out because people are desperate for "something new."

(2)However, the incompetent Steamtown management is running the train ONE DAY BEFORE the Bridge Festival at Nicholson, PA. Further, no one is allowed off the train...at Nicholson, or anywhere else. It would have been relatively simple to:

(a)Run the train on the SAME DAY as the Bridge Festival (September 7, 2008);
(b)Let passengers off at Nicholson, where an access road at the site of the demolished DL&W passenger station goes right down the hill to Nicholson;
(c)Park the train on the nearest siding to keep the railroad clear for through CP freights.

(3)This is a classic example of why the NPS should be the LAST organization anywhere to operate the steam excursion program at Steamtown NHS.

Lets face it, this is a hobby and an industry with a lot of organizations that can't get the word out on time, can't communicate with people beyond their own membership, stage disorganized events, and frustrate and waste the time of many of the people who try to help them. ARM and TRAIN should be addressing this more, but instead their conventions end up being a week of tours and socializing. Taken in context with similar organizations, steamtown isn't the best but isn't the worst either, and I haven't heard of NPS writing checks to anybody that bounced.

MX

Steamtown's own website shows the rail excursion to Nicholson on Saturday, September 6, and "Bridge Day" on Sunday, September 7. The fact that "NPS...checks (don't) bounce" doesn't justify such poor performance.

DonPevsner wrote:(1)Yes, Steamtown is operating a special train on CP, 19 miles each way from Scranton to the Tunkhannock Viaduct, on September 6, 2008. And, yes, it has already sold-out because people are desperate for "something new."

(2)However, the incompetent Steamtown management is running the train ONE DAY BEFORE the Bridge Festival at Nicholson, PA. Further, no one is allowed off the train...at Nicholson, or anywhere else. It would have been relatively simple to:

(a)Run the train on the SAME DAY as the Bridge Festival (September 7, 2008);
(b)Let passengers off at Nicholson, where an access road at the site of the demolished DL&W passenger station goes right down the hill to Nicholson;
(c)Park the train on the nearest siding to keep the railroad clear for through CP freights.

(3)This is a classic example of why the NPS should be the LAST organization anywhere to operate the steam excursion program at Steamtown NHS.

The day of the excursion is probably dictated by CP since they own the tracks, not Steamtown. #2 is not practical since the access road down to Nicholson is not an easy path and you are going to have people on board who aren't going to be up for such a hike. Not allowing people off the train is a CP rule.

Mike

(1)A basic requirement of ANY competent management--anywhere--is to NEGOTIATE the best deal for itself.

(2)This applies in particular to Steamtown management, which blithely gave the CPR a former CPR Hudson locomotive with no quid pro quo at all.

(3)That donation put Steamtown in a position to ask for:

(a)Regular, if infrequent, runs over the CP line between Scranton and Binghamton, in whole or in part, as a paying customer. This was done regularly when the D&H was the
designated operator.

(b)Running to the Bridge Festival on the day it is held, rather than one day earlier.

(c)Obtaining a waiver of any "CP rule" that forbids passengers from detraining. This sort of "rule" is made to be modified when desirable for both parties.

(4)Steamtown carries enough liability insurance to satisfy CPR's wildest demands.

(5)Instead, current Steamtown management is dealing with CPR on a "take it or leave it" basis. Further, CPR--like any railroad operating in the USA--needs US Government
support from time to time across a whole range of issues. Steamtown is a unit of the NPS: a Federal Government agency. This gives Steamtown management a good deal of
leverage with CPR management at the top. Instead, they are acting as if they are hat-in-hand beggars, come to see the King. Totally shameful.

(6)Most passengers could walk down the road to Nicholson from trackside. For the elderly and handicapped, vans could easily do the job. (I've driven up and back in a rental car numerous times.) Further, the train could have parked on a siding near a road, and bused everyone back to Nicholson. (Kingsley--a former regular excursion destination--would appear to fit this bill.) Again: a total lack of imagination and competence by Steamtown management.

So which "RR" (organization or individual) is considered to be qualified to replace the current management?

Serious answers only please.

MX

Mr. Pevsner, perhaps it's time to "give it a rest". This cutting up of NPS-Steamtown is getting rather tiresome. I'm also a bit curious about your qualifications and experience in the heritage railway field; aircraft excursions are not really applicable, in my opinion. Have you had any "hands-on" involvement with operating a historic/museum railway in the US in the current environment (regulatory, financial, mechanical, etc.)?

And, NPS gave CPR a Hudson, not a Pacific.

(1)Evidently, H.F. Malone (the last poster) has never heard of investigative reporting, which I did for a number of years for Universal Press Syndicate and elsewhere.

(2)In the law, the expression "res ipsa loquitur" covers it all: "The thing speaks for itself." All anyone has to do is look at the static rolling-stock; the pathetically-reduced steam excursion schedule; the barely-extant overhaul "display"; the comments of far too many Steamtown visitors. It should also be obvious that I had numerous confidential sources inside Steamtown itself.

(3)I will not "give it a rest" until the entire, destructive management crew at Steamtown is reassigned to Butte, Montana, or fired.