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Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens.

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 Topic locked

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #865873  by Matt Johnson
 
Jeremy Zella wrote:What I am dying to know is, is why in the world did Amtrak waste money on that ridiculous looking locomotive when they could have bought streamlined trainsets for both the Keystone and the NEC??? Here we are trying to be a so-called leader in HSR and Amtrak goes and buys these things... I mean come on who in the global community is actually believing that we will have HSR? And top speeds of 125mph? I read that if the Acela trainsets' tilting mechanisms were reengineered they would easily be able to do 150mph+ in more parts of the NEC.

Why is it we are so proud of making advances that are always miles behind the rest of the world?
Apparently a rakish nose is not beneficial enough to warrant inclusion in most double-cab 200 km/hr class electric locos throughout the world. That doesn't mean that they aren't designed with some aerodynamic considerations however.

I think the spec called for 135 mph capability if I'm not mistaken, but they will run at 125 in revenue service. Amtrak has also been working on preliminary requirements for a new HST set to replace the Acela.

Re: Siemens it is, contract awarded

 #866065  by Silverliner II
 
CSX Conductor wrote:The Meatballs are rumored to be converted into Cabbage cars so that all trains going to Richmond, Newport News & Lynchburg can be operated push-pull.
Not to mention the Keystones and Springfield shuttles. Not sure why they would bother with the Virginia trains since they all get wyed right now anyway....

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866108  by Jeff Smith
 
Otto is correct (and if he weren't, he's a site admin, so he is :wink: ); if you want to argue 6 axle and E60's, let's take it to the rolling stock thread. I've taken most posts out that were not on the Sprinter.

The topic here is ACS-64. Let's keep this thread related to developments of the ordered unit, design, build, and delivery, and not a "woulda coulda shoulda" on what they "shoulda" ordered, or not.

Let's also not start any "farewell tour" threads. As the units begin delivery, if someone wants to start a "retirement" thread, fine.

Stray and you know what happens (it has to do with a key).

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866126  by Nasadowsk
 
Looks like Siemens' persistence in going after the US market paid off...

Now, the bigger questions:

1) Does BBD, who's a known sore loser (witness M8 on MNRR), push the 'Germany' button with the media, or the Iran connection?
2) Is this an actual contract, yet?
3) How did Siemens get this one - the 46A is not a shabby unit, and was the assumed front runner. While I don't doubt that Siemens can make a good unit, why is Amtrak going with a question mark, vs a known quantity?
4) I see 'assembled at <state name> factory' a here. Political decision?

Of course, the technical ones I posted earlier still stand.

As for the MBTA and MARC, etc, why isn't Amtrak charging MORE for diesel ops, which generally can't get out of their own way? If anything, Amtrak should be trying to encourage use of electrics on the NEC, since it ultimately benefits everyone in the end (even ignoring the 'green' slant). The Providence line in particular's a poster child for electric operation...

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866142  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Nasadowsk wrote:Looks like Siemens' persistence in going after the US market paid off...

Now, the bigger questions:

1) Does BBD, who's a known sore loser (witness M8 on MNRR), push the 'Germany' button with the media, or the Iran connection?
I'd say that the fallout over the Acela is a lot more relevant.
Nasadowsk wrote:2) Is this an actual contract, yet?
More to the point, is it funded?
Nasadowsk wrote:3) How did Siemens get this one - the 46A is not a shabby unit, and was the assumed front runner. While I don't doubt that Siemens can make a good unit, why is Amtrak going with a question mark, vs a known quantity?
4) I see 'assembled at <state name> factory' a here. Political decision?
There is a big question mark over the NJT order. Why in the world did NJT want locomotives geared for 125MPH, for instance? There are also big question marks surround the NJT order for the world's most expensive locomotives, the dual mode that's only been seen in mock up(?) form in Berlin, Germany. Without dissecting the technical aspects of the decision, it's really impossible to speculate.


Nasadowsk wrote:As for the MBTA and MARC, etc, why isn't Amtrak charging MORE for diesel ops, which generally can't get out of their own way? If anything, Amtrak should be trying to encourage use of electrics on the NEC, since it ultimately benefits everyone in the end (even ignoring the 'green' slant). The Providence line in particular's a poster child for electric operation...
After Amtrak's own electric locomotive woes, with this order being the 4th generation since Amtrak came into existance, it's hard to see why any transit agency would want to get onto the electric locomotive bandwagon. As previously stated, MBTA has already committed to a big MPI/GE order for diesels, and short of an unlikely electrification program of its own, couldn't use electrics in any case.

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866143  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Jeff Smith wrote:Otto is correct (and if he weren't, he's a site admin, so he is :wink: ); if you want to argue 6 axle and E60's, let's take it to the rolling stock thread. I've taken most posts out that were not on the Sprinter.


Is this "ACS64" really a Sprinter derivative or part of the new Vectron range that was introduced this summer?


Jeff Smith wrote:The topic here is ACS-64. Let's keep this thread related to developments of the ordered unit, design, build, and delivery, and not a "woulda coulda shoulda" on what they "shoulda" ordered, or not.


In that case, could you tell us precisely what was ordered? I have yet to see any specifications, only a single rendering?

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866161  by Nasadowsk
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:After Amtrak's own electric locomotive woes, with this order being the 4th generation since Amtrak came into existance,
And they're up to generation 5 or 6 of diesels. By your logic, why would any transit agency want diesel? The AEM-7s have outlasted just about every other motive power purchase Amtrak's made. And they're still running daily 125mph service, at least when they're running...

The news releases suggest an 8600 HP unit based on the Sprinter, though I wouldn't be surprised if Vectron engineering gets in there, too (inverters, etc). Press releases suggest a crash energy management design, as opposed to a typical FRA-style battering ram. No weight numbers yet, though Amtrak supposedly set a 220,000 lb, or was it 210,000 lb max (I'm guessing based on HHP-8 experience, maybe the days of SUV-style rail equipment are finally numbered...). Amtrak set a low number on the weight of the Amfleet replacements (See the next gen single level corridor thread), though IMHO still not aggressive enough. Put 8600hp in front of a 6 car train of 40-45 ton cars, and you have a respectable performer...

I'm wondering if being 1000 HP more powerful than the 46A helped Siemens out? It'll sure help out on the NEC, where the higher HP means better acceleration at the top end (The bottom end will be a function of inverter performance, as we've seen with the 46 and 46As Vs the HHP-8 - indentical units, yet the lighter, IGBT 46As seem to be the top performer)

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866163  by ryanov
 
The e-mail I got from NARP called them the ACS-86. I haven't seen anything official either way -- has anyone else? Amtrak doesn't say.

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866166  by Jeff Smith
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
Jeff Smith wrote:Otto is correct (and if he weren't, he's a site admin, so he is :wink: ); if you want to argue 6 axle and E60's, let's take it to the rolling stock thread. I've taken most posts out that were not on the Sprinter.


Is this "ACS64" really a Sprinter derivative or part of the new Vectron range that was introduced this summer?
Jeff Smith wrote:The topic here is ACS-64. Let's keep this thread related to developments of the ordered unit, design, build, and delivery, and not a "woulda coulda shoulda" on what they "shoulda" ordered, or not.


In that case, could you tell us precisely what was ordered? I have yet to see any specifications, only a single rendering?


Mod Note: Good questions both. I am merely moderating in my comments above. They call it a Sprinter, so do I. And no, I can't tell you what was ordered; I haven't done the research. Have you? It's called Google.

This thread is for exactly that question, though; the design of the SPRINTER/VECTRON/WHATEVER, it's build, specifications, timeline, delivery, etc.

Again, this is not a coulda shoulda woulda thread. That ship has sailed.

Re: Siemens it is, contract awarded

 #866170  by chrisf
 
GP40 6694 wrote: There is no wire on some of the Providence line. I don't know which places are and aren't electrified, but there's a stretch near Boston that doesn't have wire, the station at T.F. Greene isn't under the wire, the autorack cleared section near Providence doesn't have wire, and none of the yards have wire. Here's a picture of a Provdience train not under the wire:

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?20091 ... providence
That looks like Ruggles. The two tracks to the right in the photo are electrified and many of the Providence trains come in over there, under the wire.

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866202  by Jishnu
 
Matt Johnson wrote: I think the spec called for 135 mph capability if I'm not mistaken, but they will run at 125 in revenue service. Amtrak has also been working on preliminary requirements for a new HST set to replace the Acela.
I believe the spec in the RFP for these was for 125mph. Why would they spec 135 mph when they have nothing in the way of cars either on hand or in plans that would be capable of running at 135mph pulled by these locomotives, i.e. meet Tier II requirements? Of course in order to be certified for 125mpoh they will have to be able to actually be tested at upto something like 140mph, but they will operate commercially only at 125mph.

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866229  by afiggatt
 
ryanov wrote:The e-mail I got from NARP called them the ACS-86. I haven't seen anything official either way -- has anyone else? Amtrak doesn't say.
The Amtrak official press release calls the new locomotives the Amtrak Cities Sprinter ACS-64. Should take the press release as the most accurate source available until Amtrak says differently. But "Amtrak Cities Sprinter"? Really?

The Siemens plant in Sacramento CA where these are to be built / assembled is an active plant that is currently building light rail cars. There is an article in the Sacramento Bee paper about a formal contract award celebration at the plant on Friday: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/30/314451 ... s-new.html. Fair use quote:
"It had all the trappings of a rally Friday. On the assembly floor of Siemens Mobility's Sacramento plant, there was much to celebrate: 200 new jobs as part of a $466 million contract to build 70 electric locomotives for Amtrak's bustling East Coast rail routes.

This is about jobs; good-paying jobs. That's what we're here celebrating today," said Joseph Szabo, head of the Federal Railroad Administration.

Electricians, engineers, carpenters and welders, as well as support staff, will come aboard over the next 2 1/2 years for the multimillion-dollar project, said Siemens spokeswoman Becky Johnson. New cranes will also be brought in, she said, but few plant changes will be needed to accommodate the project. The six-year Amtrak contract will be split between Siemens' plants in Sacramento, Georgia and Ohio." Amtrak board Chairman Thomas Carper was also present to speak to the plant workers. So, yes, this is a signed contract with hiring to start soon.
If Siemens is going to upgrade the Sacramento plant to build the ACS-64s, their plan may well be to use the contract and work to get the plant positioned for bidding to build the trains and equipment for the CA HSR system. If Siemens has a factory in Sacramento that is building electric locos for Amtrak and that they propose to use to build the HSR trains in California using California workers, that can get them big political points in the bid process.

Re: Sprinter ACS-64 Electric Loco: Siemens

 #866255  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Assuming a rollout date of circa 2015, the oldest AEM7s would be 35+ years old (1979-80). The last AEM7s from the final order (1987) would be 28. The HHP8s (1999-2000) would be only 15 years old-young for a locomotive. I could see the HHP8s, still fairly young last another 10-15 years beyond 2015, if they are sold to another railroad.

By comparsion, the GG1s were in their early forties when they were withdrawn in the late seventies, before taken off service by 1981.

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