Southwest Chief on the Ground in MO

scratchyX1 wrote:Operation Lifesaver needs to up it's game, maybe?
When I had drivers ed, look both ways at any railroad crossing was drilled in.
Is that not done, anymore?

When I took my driving test I sure wasn’t brought to a train crossing and taught what to do. Not that it matters. Everyone here in NJ runs the lights anyways.

Didn’t Operation Lifesaver used to do a thing where they went around with a trailer that had a train simulator inside it? One that showed what happens during train crossing accidents from the engineers point of view? I know someone used to do this during the Conrail days, I just don’t remember who.

From what I’ve heard the simulator thing was very effective and scared the hell out of a lot of people…

I will answer the question posed briefly: Are you a safety professional, or a Railcar or automotive structural engineer with a current PE?

People died. There’s already a lawsuit. We know NRPC looks at our forum.

Let NTSB do it’s job.

Are you suggesting the NTSB, Amtrak and other investigative agencies are so inept as to seek input from a railfan forum? Personally I have far more faith in them than that. I feel confident nothing we say or do on this forum will have any impact on their investigation, and to think otherwise vastly over-states our importance.

As a moderator, I'm sure you know our members here run the entire spectrum from those with a casual hobby interest, to those both active and retired from railroad careers. Those careers collectively include experience in operations, engineering, accident investigation, and we probably have some attorneys on here too. The purposes of forums such as this are IMHO two-fold - enjoyment, and education. None of us knows it all, and it is rewarding to exchange ideas and speculation, to learn from other members, and to compare the various information here with that developed by those agencies working the situations in the real world.

I have had experience in derailment and accident investigation. While nothing I was involved with was as tragic as this, I can assure you that our work was done on the basis of cold, actual facts, observed, measured and confirmed in the field and related investigation. To me, the idea of an investigation being influenced by Facebook, a railfan forum or any other unrelated source is preposterous. Pretending we have to "keep quiet" until all the reports are made or all the lawsuits are settled negates much of the value of the forum.

Again, every time someone guesses at ANYTHING, that's speculation - including your guess on the size of the truck involved. Please help us understand what degree of speculation is and is not allowed - the forum rules say nothing to help us decide.

BR&P wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:42 pm We have numerous posts suggesting improvised lights, speed bumps, and numerous other changes to be made randomly at crossings. The fact is even a simple post with a crossbuck is, in the laws of every state, a YIELD sign. It indicates the train has the right of way. Lights, gates and other extra measures add a layer of redundancy to account for human nature - the possibility to be distracted by traffic, inattention etc.

The Three E's of Operation Lifesaver are Education, Engineering and Enforcement. Engineering over decades has provided universal practices such as the flashing lights and other precautions. Adding extra, local gizmos would be a step back in safety. Enforcement - in the form of a cop sitting in a cornfield watching 5 dump trucks a day for violations, is of course not an answer. Education has the highest likelihood of getting through to people - if EVERY driver approaches EVERY crossing thinking a train may be coming, virtually every such incident could be prevented.

Inventing new and different things is not the answer.

Photos show a cross buck AND a stop sign. I've no idea what, for train tracks, this means legally, though for vehicles at a road intersection, the stop sign is very clear. But one could answer that the late truck driver could have stopped, and, though perhaps not being able to see or hear anything, thought it safe to proceed. And it's equally possible that this driver, with lighter loads, could have cleared normally. It's been said that in real life, the truck got stuck, hooked on the tracks. What that means I don't really know for sure, just what it sounds like. IOTW, speculation.

The thing that speculation helps in is suggesting ways to prevent such accidents. Sure, one of these years NTSB will release a report with suggestions on how to prevent a repeat. And it may be that it's previously said the same sort of thing and that no one did anything about it.

How many trucks went across this crossing before this accident for the Corp of Engineers project? That includes this truck and the driver and maybe other drivers with this truck. I cannot imagine just one load of riprap for any flood control project..

Besides the obvious, are you wondering if lots of heavy truck loads may have done damage to the crossing or the leadup to the crossing? And why is this the first heavy truck to get stuck? All I think we know is that it was heavy with rocks, and we got a look at a very heavy axle.

Yes that was one thought. Any posssible damage should have been in the Corp EIS. If it was not ????

The ten second Amtrak spots that air around here, "Just an Amtrak away"; have now resumed.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:01 amRather hard to flatten out here. The grade supports drainage in our rainstorms.

Define "flat". A garage floor seems flat but should have an up to 1/2 inch pitch toward a drain or the door so water doesn't pool. A driveway would have a deeper pitch to keep water away from the building. Roads are built with crowns that allow water to run off to the sides. Most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between absolutely flat (as measured with a level) and one with a slight slope.

Not sure if this has been posted yet but I'm not going back to find out. Railway Age article on the NTSB investigation, with a 5 minute YouTube video walking the length of the derailment. Also transcript of NTSB Chair's remarks.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... e-injured/

BR&P wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:30 pmIndeed, if someone asks the date of the last train to Podunk, and a reply says “I think it was late 2002”, that is speculation.

And clearly labeled as such. The problem we see with major news events. Too much gets stated as if it was fact when it really is speculation. And such speculation when repeated turns into conspiracy theories. Years later people are still repeating lies that started as speculation instead of speaking the truth. And when the NTSB does come out with an official report people use that early speculation as support for claims that the NTSB is wrong and they ignored some evidence that was never real.

It is better to start with the truth, stick with the truth and not leave the truth. Then people won't be confused when facts are released.

Y'all are just asking for this to be locked and pruned....

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:25 pm Operation Lifesaver needs to up it's game, maybe?
When I had drivers ed, look both ways at any railroad crossing was drilled in.
Is that not done, anymore?

From my experience, Lifesaver relies almost entirely on volunteers. How exactly do you plan to have them up their game?...

eolesen wrote:
From my experience, Lifesaver relies almost entirely on volunteers. How exactly do you plan to have them up their game?...

I took that as tongue in cheek. The overwhelming majority of grade crossing collisions are the result of someone NOT taking prudent steps to be safe. Heck, how many collisions are caused by people actually driving around lowered gates? How much more protection can you provide? Maybe we should have full-width Jersey Barriers that rise up out of the road on both sides of the crossing.

We don't need speed bumps in the road, nor battery powered lights on top of a pole. We need to put (actually, "keep") the responsibility right where it already is - on the motorist.

justalurker66 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:27 pm The problem we see with major news events. Too much gets stated as if it was fact when it really is speculation. And such speculation when repeated turns into conspiracy theories. Years later people are still repeating lies that started as speculation instead of speaking the truth. And when the NTSB does come out with an official report people use that early speculation as support for claims that the NTSB is wrong and they ignored some evidence that was never real.

So we need to avoid in-depth discussion of railroad events because it might lead to conspiracy theories? Surely you jest.

Has anyone seen a report whether the dump truck got stuck on the crossing (clearance issue, etc.) or was the truck driving just fine and ran the crossing?