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  • Signal, Train Order, and radio questions

  • Discussion of the historical operations related to the Central Railroad of New Jersey; Lehigh & Hudson River; Lehigh & New England; Lehigh Valley; and the Reading Company. Visit the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society for more information.
Discussion of the historical operations related to the Central Railroad of New Jersey; Lehigh & Hudson River; Lehigh & New England; Lehigh Valley; and the Reading Company. Visit the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society for more information.

Moderators: David, scottychaos, CAR_FLOATER, metman499, Franklin Gowen, Marty Feldner

 #172729  by SooLineRob
 
Hello L&HR fans...

A few questions, if anyone happens to know the answers...

When (year?) was the APB Block Signal system on the mainline between G Tower and Maybrook de-activated / taken out of service?

The DL&W/EL crossing at Andover...NYS&W crossing at Sparta...
Did the agent/operator manually (locally) control the signals governing train movements over these diamonds?

How did train crews know they were to receive new train orders enroute? I understand that Train Order offices/stations displayed T/O signals, seperate from the Block Signal system, but I was wondering if train crews got any "advance notice" that they had to pick up new orders. Or did they simply have to approach T/O stations "prepared to stop/pick up" orders by observing the T/O signals?

Did the online agencies/train order stations have radio equipment to talk to train crews? Was radio communication strictly between Warwick and wayside antennas/train crews? Or did "radio equipped" simply mean the locomotives and cabooses, with a single "portable" radio for the trainmen?

Did train crews copy new Train Orders over the radio like today, or was that practice prohibited "back then"? Was writing/copying Train Orders the exclusive responsibility of Dispatchers/Agents/Operators, with the Orders being physically delivered/handed/hooped-up to train crews?

When (year) did the online (Franklin,Andover,Great Meadows,etc.) Train Order offices/stations close? How about the Warwick Train Dispatcher's office/position? I assume Conrail "shut down" the Warwick HQ rather quickly, did the Dispatchers/Operators suffer a "forced relocation" to another office, or simply lose their jobs?

The train order questions may be generic in nature, the practice being governed by operating rules in effect during the time. I'm not very familiar with the "old" Form 19's/train orders. But with the L&HR's early installation of radios, I was curious how the radio may have changed the way train crews received their orders to proceed on the main track or execute a meet with an opposing train. And once the signal system went dark, what effect, if any, did that have on the way the L&HR dispatched trains or issued orders to crews. Thanks in advance for any replies...
 #172752  by CAR_FLOATER
 
Hi SL Rob, let me see if I can help answer some of these questions....

"When (year?) was the APB Block Signal system on the mainline between G Tower and Maybrook de-activated / taken out of service?"

< Not sure, I'll check my Boyd/Antz book for thw answer when I get home. >

"The DL&W/EL crossing at Andover...NYS&W crossing at Sparta...
Did the agent/operator manually (locally) control the signals governing train movements over these diamonds?"

< Yes they did, as the agent would not only set the crossing signals, but issue train orders by direct communication with the respective despatchers.....At Andover, it was the DL&W who had to stop, due to the greater amount of traffic on the L&HR. It was maintained by the L&H, even though by rights, the DL&W should have had the R-O-W because they were the railroad that showed up "first" to Andover. (First RR usually has the R-O-W).....At Sparta, it was the NYS&W who maintained the crossing, and here the "second railroad to arrive" rule was observed. >

"How did train crews know they were to receive new train orders enroute? I understand that Train Order offices/stations displayed T/O signals, seperate from the Block Signal system, but I was wondering if train crews got any "advance notice" that they had to pick up new orders. Or did they simply have to approach T/O stations "prepared to stop/pick up" orders by observing the T/O signals?"

< I believe you are correct, I don't think the crews had engine-equiped communication to the despatcher, but I reserve the right to be wrong on this one!. >

"Did the online agencies/train order stations have radio equipment to talk to train crews? Was radio communication strictly between Warwick and wayside antennas/train crews? Or did "radio equipped" simply mean the locomotives and cabooses, with a single "portable" radio for the trainmen?"

< Another good question, I am not sure, but I'l llook this one up too when I get home. >

"Did train crews copy new Train Orders over the radio like today, or was that practice prohibited "back then"? Was writing/copying Train Orders the exclusive responsibility of Dispatchers/Agents/Operators, with the Orders being physically delivered/handed/hooped-up to train crews?"

< Well, considering I have personally seen train orders for the L&H from the 60's and 70's, I'd say no, they got them on the fly mostly, but with the closing of manned stations in later years, trains may have stopped at lineside phones where agents were once located to talk to Warwick to recieve orders....Sorry for the vague answer! >

"When (year) did the online (Franklin,Andover,Great Meadows,etc.) Train Order offices/stations close? How about the Warwick Train Dispatcher's office/position? I assume Conrail "shut down" the Warwick HQ rather quickly, did the Dispatchers/Operators suffer a "forced relocation" to another office, or simply lose their jobs?"

< Another one to look up >

"The train order questions may be generic in nature, the practice being governed by operating rules in effect during the time. I'm not very familiar with the "old" Form 19's/train orders. But with the L&HR's early installation of radios, I was curious how the radio may have changed the way train crews received their orders to proceed on the main track or execute a meet with an opposing train. And once the signal system went dark, what effect, if any, did that have on the way the L&HR dispatched trains or issued orders to crews."

< See answer(s) above......What I do know is the signal system on the L&H did NOT give trains the right to occupy a section of track from point A to point B, only train orders did. The signal system only showed block ocupancy, nothing else. I guess you could say it was an extra measure of protection for the movement of trains. >

Hope this helped a little,

CF
Dispatcher on a HO Scale representation of the NYS&W and L&HR in 1947

 #173520  by ajt
 
I'm pretty sure the signals were working into the Conrail era. The Feds get involved once signals are installed, requiring permission to remove signals, so many times you'll find routes not needed signals still retaining them - easier than getting permission to remove them.
 #173957  by jmchitvt
 
The train order signals were connected to the ABS - when you moved the handle or turned the lever, the next block went to an approach.

I believe the L&H was timetable/train order operation until the end (using open offices only) and with plenty of sidings and then less trains, even when MO was closed you could set it up easy from G to AD, and then AD to Q on the weekends when nothing else was open.

The contact between stations, trains and dispatcher was of an earlier era and nothing like the form D (or form M, on the VRS) variety of today.