Siemens to manufacture 83 Airo Intercity Trainsets for Amtrak: Design, Delivery, Acceptance

I read somewhere where it was stated that the battery hybrid equipment is specifically for the Empire Corridor - will try to find where I saw that - take it or leave it.

I'm starting to think most of the new Chargers will be diesel-hybrids, and just a few will be dual mode like the existing Empire Service locomotives, diesel and DC third rail. The biggest question left unanswered with both the Siemens and Amtrak press releases is how large will the batteries be on the diesel-hybrid locomotives.
A small battery will allow regenerative breaking storing energy into the battery bank for reuse later, this arrangement can save 25%-35% in fuel consumption. A larger battery not only allows regenerative breaking with all the fuel savings, it could also allow 25 to 90 miles range on the battery depending upon how large it is.
New Class 777 Merseyside rail EMUs built by Stadler and Bombardier Talent 3 EMUs running on batteries can achieve 25 miles (40 kilometers) in 2017, and Bombardier is hoping for 60 miles range (100 kilometers) in the near future. Stadler rail sold a German operator a battery powered FLIRT train with a potential range of 90 miles (150 kilometers) last year.

300 miles is still too far for an entire trip on battery powered train.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:50 pm Ron, the A-I's comprised three distinct orders which as I recall was an exercise of options.

First order was for 57 cars placed during Oct '73, which were billed as "non powered Metroliners. This was followed by an order of 245 more, and subsequently another 200.

First placed in revenue service Oct '75; final of the 492 cars received March '77.

73, 75, and 77 were 48, 46, and 44 years ago, wow!

Inconsistencies between the Amtrak and Siemens press releases, which is correct?
Amtrak = 83 trainsets for $7.3 Billion with options for 130 more units.
Siemens = 73 "Hybrid" trainsets for $3.4 Billion with options for 140 more units
Huh?
Does that mean 73 hybrid trainsets costing $2.4 Billion and 10 dual mode trainsets costing $3.9 Billion?
Math = 7.3 - 3.4 = 3.9
Wow, those 10 dual mode trainsets are really expensive, or am I misreading the different press releases???????

Why do I get this feeling deep down in my guts that something is really amiss?

Ron,

Why do I get this feeling deep down in my guts that something is really amiss?

First word: government. Second word: federal.

Well this thread blew up fast...

Here is a question, are these trainsets able to couple or uncouple induvial cars? If yes, you could very easily tailor each trainset for demand. Combine this with not having to swap engines at places like Washington significant cost savings could be realized. If that is not the case perhaps they can run them nose to nose like they do with similar equipment in Europe.

I could easily see Amtrak putting these new trainsets on the Virginia trains to Norfolk, Newport News, Richmond and eventually Christiansburg. Other proposed routes such as the ones to Ronkonkoma, Scranton, Allentown, and Reading will see these trainsets if they come to pass. Why not stop there? Perhaps a Washington-Albany or a Philadelphia-Pittsburg service could be implemented using these trainsets.

Lost another post. There are too many different possibilities, Moderator(s) may need to initiate separate threads for various specifications. Motive power, passenger cars, operations, etc.

Shortline614 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:51 pm Well this thread blew up fast...

Here is a question, are these trainsets able to couple or uncouple induvial cars? If yes, you could very easily tailor each trainset for demand. Combine this with not having to swap engines at places like Washington significant cost savings could be realized. If that is not the case perhaps they can run them nose to nose like they do with similar equipment in Europe.

I could easily see Amtrak putting these new trainsets on the Virginia trains to Norfolk, Newport News, Richmond and eventually Christiansburg. Other proposed routes such as the ones to Ronkonkoma, Scranton, Allentown, and Reading will see these trainsets if they come to pass. Why not stop there? Perhaps a Washington-Albany or a Philadelphia-Pittsburg service could be implemented using these trainsets.

I see Amtrak replacing "all" the trains using Amfleet 1s with these new trainsets. !!!!!! All !!!!!!!

As for how they will be coupled, that's up to Amtrak to publish in a press release. Siemens will build them any way Amtrak wants. California and VIA went with permanent attachments and open vestibules between all the cars, Illinois and other Midwestern states went with married pairs with open vestibules between cars within a pair, and couplers between pairs with closed vestibules between pairs and any additional cars. Siemens will do it either way.

Lots of speculation would have been eliminated if Amtrak or Siemens answered all these questions, including yours, in the initial press releases. But they did not, I guess they wanted a lively debate to stir up publicity.

The Siemens coaches look to be excellent, and I hope to try them out on Brightline when they open the Orlando extension. I have confidence that whatever the particulars, Siemens has an excellent product in the Viaggio/Venture coach family. I think we can surmise that these sets will include a cab control car as shown in the artist rendering, with a nice sleek look and superior crash protection for the crew vs the old Budd Metroliner cabs. I'm most curious about the dual mode motive power - I'm guessing Siemens is confident that they have a design that'll work better than Bombardier's ALP-45DP (which is fine for commuter service but I believe failed the 125 mph qualification runs due to its high axle loading and poor high speed tracking dynamics, and is currently limited to either 90 or 100 mph).

In the Siemens Venture Coach brochure the sample trainset is 6 cars; 1 premium coach (50 seats 2:1), 4 economy coaches (70 seats 2:2), 1 cafe/economy coach (44 2:2 seats), and a cab car (62 2:2 seats). That adds up to 436 revenue seats. Obviously that's just an example to demonstrate the product; Amtrak can arrange the trainsets any way they want and Siemens will build to Amtrak's specifications. For example the Amtrak Midwest order includes full cafe lounge cars while the California order has coaches with vending machines. VIA's trainsets are 2 business class cars, 3 economy cars (1 being the cab car), all with galley space for at seat service instead of a cafe car.

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Yes the Siemens trainsets will definitely be covering all state supported routes to VA and that includes the line to Roanoke and Christiansburg. Eventually passengers continuing to VA, the Carolinas, and Georgia on NEC extension State Supported trains will be very happy that the engine change will be eliminated. While nice for railfan as well as people who want to stock up on food at Washington Union Station, the current engine changes there take a long time. Going forward after more of the trainsets are placed into revenue service, I could see 15 minute layovers in DC.

Lots of interesting details and lack thereof. The reference to diesel battery hybrids on the Empire Service is interesting, but the other commentary from Virginia seems to point to the bulk of the order being electric-diesel dual modes.

The mixing and matching among a variety of different services (Regionals, state supported northeast routes, and some longer routes outside the northeast) makes me skeptical these are true sets.

Shortline614 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:51 pm If that is not the case perhaps they can run them nose to nose like they do with similar equipment in Europe.

Addressing Mr. Shortline's point. I too must wonder if there new sets can be coupled together resulting in a "mid-train" engine. This is standard practice on the OBB where at Salzburg, this combined set will arrive from, say, Vienna, then be split (I cringe whenever I see a Carman uncoupling the Link and Pin as the engine has to reverse to relieve the strain) with one section off to Munich and the other to Innsbruck (actually they chase each other for some 60 klicks on the DB to the Inn River near Rosenheim).

MattW wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:28 am After reading the Siemens release, I wonder if the battery will be more of a battery-assist where the battery is charged during braking, then used on acceleration so the diesel engine doesn't have to work as hard from a stop.

Yeah, I thought with this "backup" battery type of situation a diesel-pulled train might actually operate almost as well as an electric one? Say the battery is used to help with acceleration since that is where they excel, and then the battery only is used to pull through Penn Station, Amtrak could theoretically remove all the catenary and it's maintenance expense and run with hybrid locomotives everywhere.

It's only theoretical but I guess interesting food for thought.

This is a good deal.

I think we will learn a lot about these as Siemens builds them, though I think we should look at European Siemens equipment in service to answer some of our questions.

My personal hope is Amtrak and Siemens get away from narrow windows and let us look out and see.