• Siemens to manufacture 83 Intercity Trainsets for Amtrak: Design, Delivery, Acceptance

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

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  by Pensyfan19
 
A fellow railroad.net member made this very informative video with info from Amtrak and Siemens officials regarding these trainsets, along with some very interesting info for their Procurement (including an entire B unit for the battery motor instead of incorporating it with the engine itself.)

https://youtu.be/nk6A75br7xY
  by Matt Johnson
 
Very interesting! Doesn't bode well for the remaining Talgos however. I hope both the currently orphaned Wisconsin equipment and the soon to be orphaned Series 8 Cascades Talgos find a home somewhere. Almost a worse waste than the RTL-III Turboliner fiasco to just discard them, as they are new and actually work!

That dual mode in a ALC-42 frame concept sounds good in theory. I hope Siemens gets it right, as Amtrak needs it to perform well at 125 mph, unlike the NJ Transit ALP-45DP that is good for 125 in theory but apparently tracks too poorly with its high weight to get certified for 125 mph in practice.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:14 pm A fellow railroad.net member made this very informative video with info from Amtrak and Siemens officials regarding these trainsets, along with some very interesting info for their Procurement (including an entire B unit for the battery motor instead of incorporating it with the engine itself.)

https://youtu.be/nk6A75br7xY
Condensing it down:
  • EVEVERYTHING DEPENDENT ON FUNDING!
  • Everything based on Siemens' Venture trains.
  • Delivery starting 2024 and complete in 2030, in 3 phases.
  • Phase 1: (2024-2025) Siemens Venture cars w/cab cars, based on SC-44 engines (being reused from the Taligo's), to replace the Tailgo fleet on the Cascades.
  • Phase 2: Replacement of Amfleet I, Metroliner, and ACS-64 with dual-mode ALC-42E (diesel/electric) based consists w/cab cars. There are three styles: Keystone commuter, daytrip requiring diesel, and Regional. Some ACS-64's will be kept, some sold to other locomotives (example from video: MARC ACS-64s). Replaced Amfleet I/Metroliner cars will be scrapped.
  • Phase 3: (2029-2030) 17 trains for NYC to upstate NY, consisting of an tri-mode ALC-42E (caternary, third rail, diesel) and a battery trailer, followed by 6 passenger cars, and no cab.
  • Two ALC-42 units being tested in Delaware, soon Keystone and southern NEC. Once passing, they go on tour to train crews.
Still, watch the video. My take?
  • This lines up with what we discussed, but it looks like Amtrak will modernize on dual-mode on the NEC and connecting lines.
  • MARC, MBTA, etc will probably snatch up the ACS-64s (MARC for exclusive Penn line service w/extra Bombardier Multilevels, MBTA once they electrify). I don't see them ever getting scrapped. Say goodbye to the HHP-8s!
  • Metroliners will be scrapped or converted into specialty trains. They won't see even cab service.
  • Amfleet I/II trains will be converted to... corridor service out west. In other words, guess how Amtrak is going to get the consists for expanded service! Yes, it'll reuse older cars! You can also bet some Viewliner I's will still be running.
  by electricron
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:14 pm A fellow railroad.net member made this very informative video with info from Amtrak and Siemens officials regarding these trainsets, along with some very interesting info for their Procurement (including an entire B unit for the battery motor instead of incorporating it with the engine itself.)

https://youtu.be/nk6A75br7xY
Information obtained from the youtube video linked above:
What $7.3 Billion buys from Siemens
Amtrak
446 Venture cars
58 Venture Cab cars
17 Venture Battery cars
58 Diesel- Catenary ALC 42E locomotives
17 Diesel -Third Rail DC-Battery DC- ALC42E (Tri-Power) locomotives
WSDOT
40 Venture cars
8 Venture Cab cars
(Note 8 SC-44 Diesel locomotives are already in service today)

To be built in three Phases:
Phase 1 (2024-2025) WSDOT Cascades order for 8 trainsets consisting of SC-44 diesel locomotive, 5 Venture cars, + 1 Venture Cab car
Phase 3 (2029-2030) Amtrak Empire Service trains and all regional trains using Hudson River tracks for 17 trainsets consisting of 1 Tri-Power ALC-42E locomotive, 1 Venture Battery car, + 6 Venture cars (No Cab cars)
Phase 2 (2025-2029) Amtrak NEC trains in 3 different configurations
A) Keystone trains for 10 trainsets consisting of 1 ALC-42E locomotive, 4 Venture cars, + 1 Venture Cab car
B) Mostly NEC trains extending south of DC for 16 trainsets consisting of 1 ALC-42E locomotive, 5 Venture cars, + 1 Venture Cab car
C) Mostly NEC trains for 32 trainsets consisting of 1 ALC-42E locomotive, 7 Venture cars, + 1 Venture Cab car

The video broke down the Phase 2 trains by specific trains much better than I did on this list which I have tried to generalize in groups. Good news, 83 trainsets math summation matches the 83 trainsets in the press release. The video did not break down how many Venture cars will be business class, coach class, and food service cars. Sorry!

No Amfleet 2s have cars ordered to replace them yet, maybe future programs will. :wink:
There are supposedly an additional 130 more Venture trainsets Amtrak could order.

I also included the projected dates of completion of the several Phases so a record will exist 10 years hence to verify how on time and on budget this funding program fares. Will it be well ran or will it be another fiasco, only time will tell. :-D
Last edited by electricron on Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
This is an interesting video and hopefully the facts will match Amtrak's official order plans. There are some things said that I would probably reconsider mentioning. The Amtrak Hartford Line Shuttles and Valley Flyers could probably have a lot less than eight cars. Yes, those trains should be operating with three or even four cars but seven or eight cars for a shuttle train running between NHV-SPG and NHV and Greenfield might be on the overkill side. Yes, the NER trains that continue onto SPG from NHV will likely run with 7 or 8 cars.
  by Matt Johnson
 
Surprising to me that New York is not getting cab cars when all the other sets are to be push-pull. I thought the Empire Corridor benefited from the Turboliners not having to be turned in years past.

Good point regarding the Springfield shuttles. They seem to run those in two or three car sets. Will they keep running them as separate shuttles or integrate them into Regional service with the new dual modes?
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Those points could be something to think about with the Springfield Line shuttles. Who knows-when CDOT gets their brand new rolling stock for Ctrail, we have to wonder if that will make the state want to make all of the trains running only between New Haven and Springfield and Greenfield be operated by Ctrail while Amtrak uses their own equipment for the NER trains and the Vermonter. Who knows, maybe Amtrak will even look into running some other Regionals between NHV-BOS by way of inland route so they would have to use those Siemens trainsets.

It is a bit surprising that the person in the video mentions that Amtrak isn’t buying cab cars for the trains that will serve Upstate NY. If that ends up becoming a done deal, where would the Ethan Allen be turned in Burlington.
  by bostontrainguy
 
njtmnrrbuff wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:51 am It is a bit surprising that the person in the video mentions that Amtrak isn’t buying cab cars for the trains that will serve Upstate NY. If that ends up becoming a done deal, where would the Ethan Allen be turned in Burlington.
Not only that but the plan as I understand it is to run south into Rutland and then reverse north to Burlington due to the fact that the Rutland station is located south of the junction.
  by STrRedWolf
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:30 am
njtmnrrbuff wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:51 am It is a bit surprising that the person in the video mentions that Amtrak isn’t buying cab cars for the trains that will serve Upstate NY. If that ends up becoming a done deal, where would the Ethan Allen be turned in Burlington.
Not only that but the plan as I understand it is to run south into Rutland and then reverse north to Burlington due to the fact that the Rutland station is located south of the junction.
Per Amtrak site, the Ethan Allen Express doesn't go to Burlington. The Vermonter is the closest service at Essex Junction and Green Mountain Transit has a regular bus that goes there from Burlington.
  by bostontrainguy
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:07 am
bostontrainguy wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:30 am
Not only that but the plan as I understand it is to run south into Rutland and then reverse north to Burlington due to the fact that the Rutland station is located south of the junction.
Per Amtrak site, the Ethan Allen Express doesn't go to Burlington. The Vermonter is the closest service at Essex Junction and Green Mountain Transit has a regular bus that goes there from Burlington.
It soon will.
  by realtype
 
Thanks for posting this very informative video. I've been searching forever to find more details on the contract, but there's a ridiculously low amount of information for what is probably the most significant equipment order in Amtrak's history.

A couple of notes:
- I understand using the ALC-42E dual modes to eliminate the engine switch at WAS for trains traveling beyond the NEC to the South and New England, but don't see the logic at all in retiring the ACS-64 for the many NEC-only NE Regional and Keystone trips.

- Why is the Piedmont getting the ALC-42E when it doesn't run under wire for any portion of the route? The current passenger cars I believe are the oldest used in intercity/commuter rail services in the US and clearly in need of replacement, but why not the standard Siemens Venture/SC-44 equipment used by Amtrak California/Amtrak Midwest. Also since the state of NC owns the current equipment are they funding the replacements?

STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:55 pm Still, watch the video. My take?
  • This lines up with what we discussed, but it looks like Amtrak will modernize on dual-mode on the NEC and connecting lines.
  • MARC, MBTA, etc will probably snatch up the ACS-64s (MARC for exclusive Penn line service w/extra Bombardier Multilevels, MBTA once they electrify). I don't see them ever getting scrapped. Say goodbye to the HHP-8s!
  • Metroliners will be scrapped or converted into specialty trains. They won't see even cab service.
  • Amfleet I/II trains will be converted to... corridor service out west. In other words, guess how Amtrak is going to get the consists for expanded service! Yes, it'll reuse older cars! You can also bet some Viewliner I's will still be running.
- I agree that MARC is an obvious candidate for the Amtrak's retired ACS-64s, but they are probably just as likely to acquire the ALC-42E instead. I remember reading somewhere that MARC wanted to replace the entire locomotive fleet, and when the new Douglass tunnel was announced they said that diesels would be banned so dual-modes would be acquired. This points more to the ALC-42E (or ALP-45DP), especially if they want to retain the brand new SC-44s.

- How realistic is MBTA electrification? Also, like Caltrain, it looks like they want to convert to an "S-Bahn" type regional rail model and would prefer EMUs.

- I think the Amfleets will end up scrapped immediately upon retirement. They are my favorite coaches in the entire Amtrak fleet (I've ridden in everything except the Viewliners and Horizons) and have held up extremely well considering their age and utilization rate on high-speed services, but they'll be approaching 50(!) years old by the time the Ventures arrive. The longevity of the Amfleets and AEM-7s make very premature ACS-64 retirement especially wasteful.
  by STrRedWolf
 
realtype wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:47 pm - I agree that MARC is an obvious candidate for the Amtrak's retired ACS-64s, but they are probably just as likely to acquire the ALC-42E instead. I remember reading somewhere that MARC wanted to replace the entire locomotive fleet, and when the new Douglass tunnel was announced they said that diesels would be banned so dual-modes would be acquired. This points more to the ALC-42E (or ALP-45DP), especially if they want to retain the brand new SC-44s.

- How realistic is MBTA electrification? Also, like Caltrain, it looks like they want to convert to an "S-Bahn" type regional rail model and would prefer EMUs.

- I think the Amfleets will end up scrapped immediately upon retirement. They are my favorite coaches in the entire Amtrak fleet (I've ridden in everything except the Viewliners and Horizons) and have held up extremely well considering their age and utilization rate on high-speed services, but they'll be approaching 50(!) years old by the time the Ventures arrive. The longevity of the Amfleets and AEM-7s make very premature ACS-64 retirement especially wasteful.
I can't see MARC scrapping their SC-44s. I can see them scrapping the EMD/MPI/HHP-8 fleet for ALC-42Es, though (please keep MARC 68). That would allow them to save on the consists and keep operational flexibility. The HHP-8's may be traded in to Amtrak as part of the deal.

Which means MBTA, Caltrain, and NJ Transit would fight over the ACS-64s, being newer than the AEM-7s.

I really doubt the Amfleets will get scrapped right off the bat. They may get a rehab for the expanded services. Remember, MARC still has the MARC II coaches around and in occasional use. Sometimes they're lent out to Amtrak, NJ Transit, or even SEPTA (I wonder if we'll see the holiday extras...)
  by TurningOfTheWheel
 
realtype wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:47 pm Thanks for posting this very informative video. I've been searching forever to find more details on the contract, but there's a ridiculously low amount of information for what is probably the most significant equipment order in Amtrak's history.

A couple of notes:
- I understand using the ALC-42E dual modes to eliminate the engine switch at WAS for trains traveling beyond the NEC to the South and New England, but don't see the logic at all in retiring the ACS-64 for the many NEC-only NE Regional and Keystone trips.

- Why is the Piedmont getting the ALC-42E when it doesn't run under wire for any portion of the route? The current passenger cars I believe are the oldest used in intercity/commuter rail services in the US and clearly in need of replacement, but why not the standard Siemens Venture/SC-44 equipment used by Amtrak California/Amtrak Midwest. Also since the state of NC owns the current equipment are they funding the replacements?

STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:55 pm Still, watch the video. My take?
  • This lines up with what we discussed, but it looks like Amtrak will modernize on dual-mode on the NEC and connecting lines.
  • MARC, MBTA, etc will probably snatch up the ACS-64s (MARC for exclusive Penn line service w/extra Bombardier Multilevels, MBTA once they electrify). I don't see them ever getting scrapped. Say goodbye to the HHP-8s!
  • Metroliners will be scrapped or converted into specialty trains. They won't see even cab service.
  • Amfleet I/II trains will be converted to... corridor service out west. In other words, guess how Amtrak is going to get the consists for expanded service! Yes, it'll reuse older cars! You can also bet some Viewliner I's will still be running.
- I agree that MARC is an obvious candidate for the Amtrak's retired ACS-64s, but they are probably just as likely to acquire the ALC-42E instead. I remember reading somewhere that MARC wanted to replace the entire locomotive fleet, and when the new Douglass tunnel was announced they said that diesels would be banned so dual-modes would be acquired. This points more to the ALC-42E (or ALP-45DP), especially if they want to retain the brand new SC-44s.

- How realistic is MBTA electrification? Also, like Caltrain, it looks like they want to convert to an "S-Bahn" type regional rail model and would prefer EMUs.

- I think the Amfleets will end up scrapped immediately upon retirement. They are my favorite coaches in the entire Amtrak fleet (I've ridden in everything except the Viewliners and Horizons) and have held up extremely well considering their age and utilization rate on high-speed services, but they'll be approaching 50(!) years old by the time the Ventures arrive. The longevity of the Amfleets and AEM-7s make very premature ACS-64 retirement especially wasteful.
I could see the Providence/Stoughton line getting electrification upgrades (Stoughton branch and NEC station sidings are unelectrified) and maybe wires over Franklin or Fairmount in the next decade. If nearly new electric motive power is going to be readily available, that might cause the T to pick up the pace on electrification a little bit. It would also let them get some more use out of their newer multilevel equipment in electric service. Could be a bridge solution before investing in EMUs long term. Worth mentioning that some S-Bahn systems are partially loco-hauled!

Anybody else running diesel-under-wires now would probably be eyeing the ALC-42E (or SC-44E, or what have you) instead, particularly MARC, as you indicated.

And finally, a refurbished Amfleet car is a much nicer ride than a Horizon car in my opinion. As for the future of the Amfleets, seeing as most of the state corridors have decided to move to the Ventures as well, the Amfleets would probably be relegated to service expansion or new corridor services if not outright scrapped. There's just not a whole lot of places for them to go where they'd be an upgrade on current equipment.
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