• Siemens to manufacture 83 Intercity Trainsets for Amtrak: Design, Delivery, Acceptance

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by PHLSpecial
 
Wait why get rid of sprinters? Put up more catenaries. It's got to be easier to maintain that dual mode locomotives? The Virginia's, Pennsylvanian, and New Haven should get catenaries over this solution right? Let's say 1 million per mile to put up the wires. I'm going to assume all of it is double tracked. In Virginia I roughly guess its about 200 miles of track, 100 miles for New Haven and the Pennsylvanian is 250 miles. Total is 550 miles and double the miles we get 1.1 billions dollars. Come on diesel is not going to be cheap forever.
  by MattW
 
Except everything that's Amtrak or state-owned except Springfield has wires, and any electric Springfield service wouldn't require a huge fleet. For anything not Amtrak/state-owned, the freight railroads have less than no interest in having high voltage wires above their tracks. Virginia might get wires later, but that wouldn't happen until they have at least two dedicated passenger tracks in their newly bought right of way. Such a thing likely won't happen until Amtrak is ready for its next fleet upgrade/refresh/whateveryouwanttocallit anyway.
  by realtype
 
While it's great to see the Amfleets replaced and dual-mode locomotives used on long-distance NEC trains to the South and New England and eliminate engine changes, the rest of this seems unnecessarily complex and risky. It doesn't make any sense to buy battery-diesel locomotives specifically for the Empire Corridor, when the standard dual-mode units can serve the exact same purpose.

Getting rid of the ACS-64s Sprinters and running every NE Regional (including trains terminating in WAS/NYP/BOS) with heavier, more complex, more expensive DM diesels is incredibly short-sighted. It actually seems like a step backwards.
  by frequentflyer
 
Amtrak is going to run many NEC trains to places with no catenary, makes sense to have a locomotive that can be dual mode be your main locomotive. Makes the NEC operation truly seemless .

There will be transit authorities salivating for some used Sprinters at a good price. Siemens may even take them on trade. Remember,Amtrak are buying train sets not just Venture cars.
  by bdawe
 
I simply cannot imagine that Amtrak would take a situation where they have the political confidence to turf all those sprinters only to replace them with...duel mode locomotives. Like if you're going to junk the sprinters get some modern EMUs! If you don't like how long it takes to couple up a diesel to them then figure out how to do it faster than half an hour like a first world country!

Duel-mode locomotives is just the wildest choice for this. I can see the case for a few of them, but they're the most expensive option and among the least reliable. And to still be locomotive hauled, no less? The regionals will likely be slower
  by David Benton
 
Here is a breakdown of numbers i haven't seen posted yet .
From Rail gazette international (free to register to read)
"It includes 50 electro-diesel sets and 15 diesel-battery sets, with the rest being EPA Tier 4 compliant diesels capable of using biodiesel fuel. The batteries can be charged from regenerated braking energy, the diesel engine or an external supply. "
https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction ... 2020210709
  by eolesen
 
Seems like Amtrak is making a bet with the dual modes that electricity won't always be the cheap power source. Biomass and algae based diesel may eventually be cheaper, and you can't depend on a single energy source in a multistate network.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

  by PHLSpecial
 
The problem with dual mode is the trains are heavier, therefore it's less fuel efficient? Now I don't know if Amtrak will maintain the wires on the NEC and just wires into Penn Station. I agree with the user above we are going to have slower trains
  by mcgrath618
 
frequentflyer wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:50 pm https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2021/07/0 ... rnization/

An interesting point, the Sprinters will find new homes, which will not be hard for Amtrak to do.

"This phase will also see the near-complete retirement of the current Siemens ACS-64 Sprinter fleet, as Amtrak will sell or lease out the fleet rather than give them a mid-life overhaul. A small handful will be kept to support long distance trains running into New York’s Penn Station.

The new ALC-42E locomotives will open up interesting operational and route possibilities for Amtrak, in part to support its Connects US plan. Amtrak’s current fleet of 67 Sprinters can only operate in electrified territory using overhead catenary wires, limiting Amtrak’s ability to seamlessly run trains to destinations outside electrified territory.

These routes currently require a time consuming swap between electric and diesel locomotives, adding about 30 minutes to each trip each way. Amtrak will be able to run trains such as the Vermonter, which requires an engine swap in New Haven, in both diesel and electrified territory and through New York’s Penn Station, which does not allow diesel operations due to ventilation concerns.

The new locomotives will also allow Amtrak to extend existing trains that operate wholly within electrified territory, such as extending Keystone trains from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Dual-power trains will also be able to operate along the Northeast Corridor in the event of a catenary power issue, which today would bring a train to a halt."
I’m not sure where this article is sourcing its info from, but this is the first I’ve heard of the Sprinters being replaced, which I doubt is the case. There are plenty of trains that will remain solely in electrified territory, and the Sprinters still have plenty of years left of life. If anything, we’ll just see a mix now of both Sprinters and Chargers on the NEC.

Handing the Sprinters off to another organization would also not be “easy,” as you have described. The only other transit agencies in the country that could use them would be MARC and SEPTA, both of which have no use for them (SEPTA already owns Sprinters and barely uses them as it is, and MARC’s electric traction needs are… complicated, to say the least). The MBTA might eventually have some use for them, but as it stands their trains are still pulled by diesel.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Before we go to crazy, lets step back a bit.

From Trains Newswire:
The equipment will operate on the Northeast Corridor, the New York-Savannah, Ga., Palmetto, and state-supported routes, including the Adirondack, Carolinian, Amtrak Cascades, Downeaster, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Keystone Service, Maple Leaf, Hartford Line and Valley Flyer, Pennsylvanian, Vermonter and Virginia services. It will replace Amfleet I cars, Metroliners, and various state-owned equipment, such as North Carolina’s car fleet.
The new trainsets are double-headed, so you save time on turning trains. Dual-mode diesel/electric saves you more time swapping engines. So how many trainsets are we really thinking of here? Looking at the 2018 schedule, we can get a rough guess:
  • 6 - Two sets of hybrid diesel for: Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express.
  • 9- Three sets of dual mode for: Pennsylvanian, Vermonter, Carolinian. (Gotta have spares)
  • 0 for the Night Owl (65/66/67). It has a sleeper.
  • 5 hybrid for the Downeaster, which looks to be heavily leaning on rush-hour service.
  • 9 of hybrid diesel for Empire Service
  • 8 of hybrid diesel for Cascades (assuming using the shortcut and enhanced service)
  • 13 of electric for Keystone.
  • 13 electrics for the Regional, and 6 dual-modes for VA service
Totaling it up:
28 hybrid
15 diesel-electric dual-mode
16 full electric

59 trainsets. Reporting says 73. 14 more trainsets, probably hybrid, for Palmetto.

The options will probably come in when Amtrak takes the time savings and turns it into more frequent service, as well as expands it out to more corridors. Depends on how it works out.
mcgrath618 wrote:I’m not sure where this article is sourcing its info from, but this is the first I’ve heard of the Sprinters being replaced, which I doubt is the case. There are plenty of trains that will remain solely in electrified territory, and the Sprinters still have plenty of years left of life. If anything, we’ll just see a mix now of both Sprinters and Chargers on the NEC.

Handing the Sprinters off to another organization would also not be “easy,” as you have described. The only other transit agencies in the country that could use them would be MARC and SEPTA, both of which have no use for them (SEPTA already owns Sprinters and barely uses them as it is, and MARC’s electric traction needs are… complicated, to say the least). The MBTA might eventually have some use for them, but as it stands their trains are still pulled by diesel.
It would be logical if you're replacing whole trainsets, since the Siemens Venture platform is dual-headed equipment with their own engines (be it hybrid, dual-mode, or pure electric). You'll knock out one Sprinter per trainset.

I can see MARC taking a few Sprinters for Penn line service, and scrapping all other electrics (HHP-8 and AEM-7). It'll require an operational change at WAS because they don't have enough trainsets to run a split engine type service (Bruns/Camden only diesel Chargers, Penn only Sprinters, no engine swapping). MBTA would need the infrastructure.
  by electricron
 
David Benton wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:00 am Here is a breakdown of numbers i haven't seen posted yet .
From Rail gazette international (free to register to read)
"It includes 50 electro-diesel sets and 15 diesel-battery sets, with the rest being EPA Tier 4 compliant diesels capable of using biodiesel fuel. The batteries can be charged from regenerated braking energy, the diesel engine or an external supply. "
https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction ... 2020210709
So, with 83 trains being purchased, 50 ED Dual versions, 15 Hybrids, and 18 DE Tier 4 versions.
With 73 trains being purchased, 50 ED Dual versions, 15 Hybrids, and 8 DE Tier 4 versions.
  by lordsigma12345
 
I’d think Palmetto would have same type of dual mode equipment as other 1x daily long distance NEC trains (Vermonter, Pennsylvanian, Carolinian, Virginia services, etc.) Hybrids used for Empire Services will probably also eventually show up on Lake Shore NYP - ALB when they completely retire ACDMs. From ALB-CHI it will be ALC 42s when they attach the Boston section.

We don’t know that none of this equipment would be compatible with Viewliners (Night Owl.) additionally some of these other longer distance trains also have Viewliner baggage cars. If theres a way to have a viewliner in some of these consists they’ll almost certainly go with a Siemens approach for the Amfleet II replacement.

For those long distance fans nervous that there’s nothing about long distance here - the plan is that they’d begin to make decisions regarding such after the vendor for this order is set and the results of the ongoing feasibility study for rebuilding superliners as an option is complete. As the plan states Amfleet IIs will almost definitely be replaced - Superliner Is may receive a heavy rebuild or a replacement - it sounds like Superliner IIs and Viewliner Is and are not part of the discussion other than interior refreshing.
Last edited by lordsigma12345 on Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by mcgrath618
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:59 am
It would be logical if you're replacing whole trainsets, since the Siemens Venture platform is dual-headed equipment with their own engines (be it hybrid, dual-mode, or pure electric). You'll knock out one Sprinter per trainset.

I can see MARC taking a few Sprinters for Penn line service, and scrapping all other electrics (HHP-8 and AEM-7). It'll require an operational change at WAS because they don't have enough trainsets to run a split engine type service (Bruns/Camden only diesel Chargers, Penn only Sprinters, no engine swapping). MBTA would need the infrastructure.
Except they’re not? We’re still fuzzy on the details but I think it makes the most sense (as do others in this thread) that this order is for a general pool of Venture coaches along with dual mode and hybrid Chargers. There’s no reason a Sprinter couldn’t pull a set once they’re delivered. It also doesn’t make sense considering that the Amfleet IIs don’t seem to be replaced with this order.

I think part of the confusion is that the cab cars are very similar looking to the Chargers themselves. The ALC-42e locomotives will not have space for passengers, unless new information has been brought to light that I haven’t seen.

Siemens Venture coaches have already been pulled by Sprinters (why wouldn’t they have synergy? They’re made by the same company!).
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