Siemens to manufacture 83 Airo Intercity Trainsets for Amtrak: Design, Delivery, Acceptance

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:04 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 12:33 am It seems unlikely that there is even demand on every train during the day , yet they all are the same consist.
The question is wether the cost of changing consist lenght is worth the extra ticket revenue that a longer consist would bring , or the savings in running costs of running a shorter consist( i would think this would not be a saving ). also bearing in mind the other trains the consist might be assigned too in its 24 hour diagram .

Well said. A few years back the FRA made it a lot harder to add/drop cars en route even though I am not aware of any related injuries or problems.

There is also the issue of adding/dropping cars in the yard before a train runs. When you see that, pre-covide, most trains had a very similar consist throughout the week and year, it becomes apparent that there is not likely any effort to respond to demand (or lack thereof).

I had once suggested that surplus cars from Via's Canadian be used on Silver trains January to April. It is my understanding that, short term, that doesnt work as the via Budd cars are not cleared for NYP. But if Via and Amtrak kenw this would lead to 10+ years of better asset utilization, perhaps that could be accomodated.

I'm curious what the FRA changed that makes it so difficult to add and subtract cars. We do it everyday in ALB on 68/69. Some rules may have changed to add a brake test here and a extra step there but it really is no different than it was twenty something years ago when I was on uniform. Now if we are picking a car up off a siding in the middle of nowhere, that is something completely different.

So it was explained to me that the South Shore Line quit add/drop in Michigan City because the air brake tests significantly changed and the additional time incurred adding cars was not worth it compared to the 40 minute run of the shorter train to the east.

This was perhaps 2005 or so?

This is a bit of a different scenario than the Builder or Lakeshore where cars are going to different places and you have to add/drop, versus a commuter train that add/drops to account for lower ridership on the outter end of the route.

Railjunkie wrote:

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:59 pm Lets connect this all back to the Airo, shall we?

Amtrak going push-pull on the NEC is going to save time in turning trains around. Yes, it'll haul another engine or a cab unit, but having not to wye trains in two Virginia stations, DC, NYC, and Boston is going to "turn" trains faster, eliminating incurred mileage and the time it takes to wye it... and having to reverse at restricted speed. So more runs can be done.

The next step would be to eliminate engine swaps. That's costing Amtrak time on Virginia runs and the Pennsylvanian. Drop that, and you get even more trains for the price of swapping out crew. The Pennsy runs faster and saves diesel because it can connect up to the caternary in Harrisburg.

That's time saved translating to saved crew and fuel costs in two steps, which makes running on the NEC more profitable. Will that translate to lower prices? OH HELL NO! Only way that'll happen is the LD services getting fixed. But that's a topic for another thread...

Airo sets, maybe in the next 7 to 10 years if your lucky. Look at the "new" ACELA II and how long its taken them to still not to be in revenue service. As for your time saving on engine changes it will be minimal as most of those spots are crew change points. Amtrak is not going to rush a crew change just to pick up a few minutes, you might pick up 5 or to 6 minutes, maybe.

Would the new trains serve a purpose in reducing congestion? The only trains that would now require a locomotive change in DC now are the silver services, the cardinal, and the crescent. And it appears any locomotive changes north of DC would be eliminated entirely: New Haven, New York, etc

Besides the LD trains you mentioned, there are 8 Northeast Regionals that require engine changes in Washington DC to continue into Virginia and the Carolinian. Virginia plans on extending an additional 5 trains into Virginia. Besides DC, the Pennsylvanian changes engines in Philadelphia (and PA is funding the work to add a second frequency to that service), and the Vermonter and 2 Northeast Regional trains to Springfield MA change engines in New Haven. (BTW, those Regional trains that change engines in New Haven both extend into Virginia, so those passengers get to experience 2 engine changes on their journey).

So, yes, the Airo trains will eliminate 10 engine changes that currently happen in DC (8 Regionals, the Carolinian, and the Palmetto). Not only that, but since the Airo trains won't need to be turned at DC, many existing slow speed moves between Union Station and Ivy City can be eliminated, freeing up track slots for additional Amtrak, MARC, and VRE services by reducing light engine and backup moves.

Lets try this again where there are currently engine changes, DC, Harrisburg, my own crew base ALB/Renn just to name a few. They are also crew change points and as long as we are on that lets add NYP, Philly, NHV with the last few depending on how the jobs are written. The Airo sets are going to save you maybe 5 to 8 minutes per engine change, the rest of that 15-20 min dwell is going into turn over between crew members and scheduled smoke breaks if they even do those anymore.. Amtrak is very particular about job briefings. So perhaps a 20 min dwell turns into 15 and a 15min dwell turns into 10. How much time did you gain to slot a new train, this isn't Japan.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:40 am Lets try this again where there are currently engine changes, DC, Harrisburg, my own crew base ALB/Renn just to name a few. They are also crew change points and as long as we are on that lets add NYP, Philly, NHV with the last few depending on how the jobs are written. The Airo sets are going to save you maybe 5 to 8 minutes per engine change, the rest of that 15-20 min dwell is going into turn over between crew members and scheduled smoke breaks if they even do those anymore.. Amtrak is very particular about job briefings. So perhaps a 20 min dwell turns into 15 and a 15min dwell turns into 10. How much time did you gain to slot a new train, this isn't Japan.

They combine the smoke break and the crew change.

The changes do add up though. MARC and Amtrak regularly have to tweak the schedule for NEC/Penn Line service, usually 5-10 minutes ether earlier or later per train run. These past weekends they've been adjusting it to work around weekend track work. So if they shift things around and find 15 minutes? That's a commuter train during rush hour. 30? Another Regional run, or stretch an existing Regional down to Virginia.

The first Cascades Airo cab car appears to be well underway:





Instagram Source (photo 2 & 3)

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:56 am

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:40 am Lets try this again where there are currently engine changes, DC, Harrisburg, my own crew base ALB/Renn just to name a few. They are also crew change points and as long as we are on that lets add NYP, Philly, NHV with the last few depending on how the jobs are written. The Airo sets are going to save you maybe 5 to 8 minutes per engine change, the rest of that 15-20 min dwell is going into turn over between crew members and scheduled smoke breaks if they even do those anymore.. Amtrak is very particular about job briefings. So perhaps a 20 min dwell turns into 15 and a 15min dwell turns into 10. How much time did you gain to slot a new train, this isn't Japan.

They combine the smoke break and the crew change.

The changes do add up though. MARC and Amtrak regularly have to tweak the schedule for NEC/Penn Line service, usually 5-10 minutes ether earlier or later per train run. These past weekends they've been adjusting it to work around weekend track work. So if they shift things around and find 15 minutes? That's a commuter train during rush hour. 30? Another Regional run, or stretch an existing Regional down to Virginia.

While it will reduce dwell times by 10-15 minutes, I don't think that's the real savings: eliminating the engine change also eliminates two light engine moves per engine change. Facing north(ish) at Union Station, all trains getting an engine change platform to the right of NEC (and MARC) trains terminating at Union Station, and the Ivy City engine service area is to the left of the NEC, so those light engine moves have to cross the NEC, which reduces capacity at the station.

I'd think that not having to do an engine move would remove a fair amount of exposure to injuries or damage to the engine or trainset, and definitely less wear & tear on HEP/trainline connectors and to a lesser degree the couplers.

Sure must wonder who on the inside Mr. Saint must know to come away with the immediate photos he posted.

Certainly appears that Washington and Oregon will be "first kid on the block" with Airos in revenue service, albeit they "may or may not" offer Food & Beverage (considering the absence to date on the Ventures).

Amtrak would be wise to "forget the esoteric stuff" and use existing motive power - especially the ACS-64's which have half their service life to go. Just change engines wherever you must.

Finally, what if an incoming Administration takes a hard look at the LD's and makes the (to me easy) decision that "they've had their day" and start an orderly phase out. The engines to continue them indefinitely are being delivered, so they would have a home powering Airos over non-electrified territory - just as OR and WA intend to do (well, at least until that Swedish environmental gal comes over and chains herself to the tracks).

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:23 am Sure must wonder who on the inside Mr. Saint must know to come away with the immediate photos he posted.

I wish I had someone on the inside! (I only have indirect connections to Sound Transit's LRVs.) This was just a find on Instagram who I credited in the post.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:23 am Certainly appears that Washington and Oregon will be "first kid on the block" with Airos in revenue service, albeit they "may or may not" offer Food & Beverage (considering the absence to date on the Ventures).

Airos are going to have full cafes:

Cascades cafe car by Washington State Dept of Transportation, on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/alb ... 2565775500

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:05 pm While it will reduce dwell times by 10-15 minutes, I don't think that's the real savings: eliminating the engine change also eliminates two light engine moves per engine change. Facing north(ish) at Union Station, all trains getting an engine change platform to the right of NEC (and MARC) trains terminating at Union Station, and the Ivy City engine service area is to the left of the NEC, so those light engine moves have to cross the NEC, which reduces capacity at the station.

Agreed. You gotta block everyone getting out or in to get the light engine around the yard or even the Capitol Limited over to the CSX line. It'll help save on the yard moves.

Mr. Saint, of course WA/OR/DOT has mock ups for their Food & Beverage cars, but what I'm addressing is that to date, the several agencies that presently have Siemens Venture cars in revenue service do not have any for F&B. They're on the property, but to my knowledge none have been accepted. At least around here, Amfleet Cafe's are in service, but California simply has decided to forego F&B (of course, who's excited over the return of the SP Automat; that is what CA plans to offer).

So who knows; maybe the two PNW agencies can wave a magic wand and have their F&B cars ready with the Coaches, but if the experience of the agencies with Venture equipment is any guide, they won't.

Interestingly SJJPA actually said that cafe car is coming back but later. Take it with a grain of salt as it's a customer service rep on Twitter, but it was news to me as well.

https://twitter.com/SanJoaquins/status/ ... 8626614309

ST Saint wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:58 am Airos are going to have full cafes:

Cascades cafe car by Washington State Dept of Transportation, on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/alb ... 2565775500

Looks like 1/3 (?) of car is coach or business class. I hope the other side will have table seating.