• Septa Trolley Modernization

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by RandallW
 
Siemens' European trolley offering ("Avenio") is 100% low floor and offered in multiple gauges. I doubt Siemens would have any trouble bringing that equipment to the US market or adopting their equipment to Pennsylvania gauge.
  by JeffK
 
The information I found on Siemens' site makes it look like they only build for two gauges, standard and narrow (1000 mm)

At the same time they offer the cars in multiple widths. Naïvely it would seem an adaptation for PA gauge wouldn't be prohibitively complex, assuming of course it doesn't conflict with the body dimensions needed for the tunnels. This diagram from SEPTA shows the K-cars have a maximum with that's a hair under 2.6 m which is in between the two larger Avenio widths currently available.

Of course a full order for all city and suburban lines would almost certainly make it practical for Siemens (or some other builder) to tool up for SEPTA-specific sizes.
  by JeffK
 
Silverliner5 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:19 pm I found some hidden expansions on the system where 102 trolley comes to darby T.C and route 15 to 69th street
https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... x512-1.png
Interesting!

I know we hashed this around earlier, but it makes me wonder if there's any slim chance of interoperability, given the tunnel's limits on car size. The existing suburban K-cars are larger than their city counterparts but the new cars may have fewer constraints on length b/c they'll be articulated
[... won't they?]
  by Silverliner5
 
the existing loops may need to be reconfigured but if it were to be a S700 LRV then I'm sure it can go through
  by Silverliner5
 
Ok on the map for the 102 to Darby T.C is 1.2 Miles
15 to 69th street is 1.7 miles
15 to 63rd and market is 0.7 miles
10 to Overbrook station is 0.5 miles
36 to Eastwick station is 0.7 miles

So how much would it cost per mile for rails? or the whole thing together?

I've figure out the cost for rail for all of those being extended would be $38,400,000
  by scratchyX1
 
38 million for 4.5 miles of rail and overhead, and signalling, and digging up the street?
I guess that's ok, Pittsburgh lists the cost for a mile in both lanes at 10Million per mile.
If there was any dedicated transit lanes, it would be better.
  by Silverliner5
 
Yes that's the price for it but some places could use some dedicated lanes for transit but if the Route 15 was extended from westmoreland to frankford it would cost $50,400,000 for 6.3 miles
  by PHLSpecial
 
Would love to see the 56 restored since there is still a ROW but it need to be connected to some other line.
If we are going to spend 2B on the KOP extension I rather spend it on the trolley route that connects both Allegany Ave and City line ave. Would have triple the amount of riders
  by scratchyX1
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:53 am Would love to see the 56 restored since there is still a ROW but it need to be connected to some other line.
If we are going to spend 2B on the KOP extension I rather spend it on the trolley route that connects both Allegany Ave and City line ave. Would have triple the amount of riders
Is the amount of passengers on the 56 route enough to use the higher capacity of LRVs? if so, Yes it should come before KOP.
That, and the West Chester route 104, which at least needs to be trolley bus in dedicated Lanes in median, if not fully restored to LRV. There is enough passengers on the route to make use of the increased capacity and acceleration.
  by Silverliner5
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:53 am Would love to see the 56 restored since there is still a ROW but it need to be connected to some other line.
If we are going to spend 2B on the KOP extension I rather spend it on the trolley route that connects both Allegany Ave and City line ave. Would have triple the amount of riders
For route 56 it would cost $120 million to bring the line back for LRVs to run but for route 23 it would be higher or cost $50 million more to bring back tracks on that line but the actual cost for route would be $205 million
  by JeffK
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:53 am Would love to see the 56 restored since there is still a ROW but it need to be connected to some other line.
If we are going to spend 2B on the KOP extension I rather spend it on the trolley route that connects both Allegheny {Allegany] Ave and City line ave. Would have triple the amount of riders
I agree that $2B is nuts, but ... politics. I've sat in on a lot of the planning meetings. The way project funding is set up nationwide, federal $$ can't be transferred from one project to another without significant consequences. Plans have to go through a long (WAY too long) vetting process to get onto an approvals list (see: New Starts) before any $$ can start to flow. If a region decides to postpone or cancel a project, money can't simply slide over to what the region considers to be its next-best plan. The unused $$ go back into the national pot where they compete against whatever's on the approvals list across the whole country. On top of that there's a window (can't remember how long) after which the original project's timeline gets reset. Depending on what's changed in its service area, some or all of its phases like EIS, etc. have to be done over.

The only way the KoP $$ could be readily transferred to something else in southeast PA would be if (a) all funding were local OR (b1) the second project were already on the approvals list too AND (b2) it was next in the national queue.
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:12 am Is the amount of passengers on the 56 route enough to use the higher capacity of LRVs? if so, Yes it should come before KOP.
SEPTA's 2020 statistics indicate about 10K daily riders which isn't hugely above what's forecast for the NHSL extension. Plus see above.
That, and the West Chester route 104, which at least needs to be trolley bus in dedicated Lanes in median, if not fully restored to LRV. There is enough passengers on the route to make use of the increased capacity and acceleration.
IMO getting rid of the trolley was a crime. The then-Highway Department took its name very seriously - cars rule, transit be damned.

But after both looking at a map and having driven in that area, I'm not sure how easily rails could be restored or even have dedicated lanes in the median. When the ROW was torn up to build the median left-turn lanes were carved out for most intersections; they'd impinge on any dedicated transit lane.

On the other hand, maybe something like this could simply use the existing two inner lanes:
Image
  by scratchyX1
 
Or, remove the Median left turn lanes, as the dedicated lanes would move more people.
Last edited by nomis on Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Removed immediate quote
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Silverliner5 wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:35 pm Yes that's the price for it but some places could use some dedicated lanes for transit but if the Route 15 was extended from westmoreland to frankford it would cost $50,400,000 for 6.3 miles
A bargain compared to Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown, at 19 km/12 mi, about $358 million ($441m CAD) a mile, not quite the cost of the initial Second Avenue Subway segment.
  by PHLSpecial
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:02 pm Or, remove the Median left turn lanes, as the dedicated lanes would move more people.
They can totally build an on/off for 476. The highway dept is more than will to buy out property to get any highway built.
If the 104 was returned to a trolley I can see lots of infill projects for Havertown, Newtown square, and West Chester.
Phase 1 of the project could be 69th street to Newtown Square
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