• SEPTA Rebuilding for the Future Updates

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by PHLSpecial
 
Great turn out most from us transit nerds, but still it was a group of different color, races, and ages that has overwhelming support for the rapid transit(subway or el).
We need to continue this and really get more leaders to accept that we want this for the city and Septa.
First is getting a study(10000000th) done then we can talk dollars and rapid transit.
  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone - There was mention in a Inquirer article that about 150 people attended this TH presentation...
Good to know that there is support for rail rapid transit into the heart of Northeast Philadelphia.

After the inevitable further studies are completed the key is going to be the $$$PRICETAG$$$ for the extension -
and most importantly - where will the funding (Federal, State, City and other) come from - along with the
percentages from all sources? How will SEPTA and the City of Philadelphia both administer this project?

I would rather NOT mention politics in this discussion - but these factors deserve to be out in the open:
Any Philadelphia NIMBY opposition is likely to be from areas north of Rhawn Street in the Far Northeast.
There is a percentage of residents that have migrated northward from closer-in Northeast neighborhoods
over the course of recent decades that had traditionally opposed any BSL extension in the past...

State funding from PA is likely to be determined by the party in power after the 2022 Elections - If the GOP
takes control with their known anti-Phila. sentiment any PA subsidy for this project may be in jeopardy...

Federal funding may change if the GOP takes further control following the 2022 Midterm Elections...
Having local support from PA's two US Senators and SE PA Representatives in Congress may be a key...

Let's see how this all plays out in the coming months through 2023...MACTRAXX
  by Quinn
 
Imagine the relocation of utilities that would have to happen for a Boulevard subway. That has to add substantial cost.
  by scratchyX1
 
Quinn wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:37 pm Imagine the relocation of utilities that would have to happen for a Boulevard subway. That has to add substantial cost.
Would bored tunnels be cheaper in case case?
  by zebrasepta
 
If they do build this, was there any discussion of having a underground way to cross Roosevelt Boulevard instead of having to cross the actual street since it's pretty dangerous.
  by ExCon90
 
I assume they're planning on what's under Broad St. today: a mezzanine level from sidewalk to sidewalk between street level and the platforms. Doing that every two blocks or so would be expensive.
  by MACTRAXX
 
BuddCar711 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:41 pm Well the townhall went well, and there was overwhelming support for the subway. They had a poll, and the choices were:

DO NOT CHANGE
SUBWAY
MORE BUS ROUTES
ELEVATED RAILWAY

DNC received 0 votes
SUBWAY was the overwhelming winner with ER coming in at 2nd and MBR received a few votes. They should throw the idea for a monorail out the window (a monorail would be good for downtown for the tourists, but for heavy transit, no). Somone in the audience did point out that there should have been a SEPTA representative in the panel. Of course there was at least one NIMBY, but the the support is there.
BC (and Everyone) -
What I believe that the choices for SUBWAY and ELEVATED on the Roosevelt Boulevard route actually meant -
SUBWAY would be an extension of the BROAD STREET LINE
ELEVATED would be an extension of the MARKET-FRANKFORD LINE

Tunnel segments would be built to connect the BSL or aerial structures for the MFL
to access the median of Roosevelt Boulevard from either of these two routes...

This new route is to be constructed primarily using the open median strip of Roosevelt Boulevard.
The type of construction would be similar to (best local example) the Spring Garden Station on the
Market-Frankford Line which opened in 1977 in the median of I-95 near Center City...

Chicago pioneered the use of limited access highway median strips to construct rapid transit lines with
the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway route in 1958 - today's CTA Blue Line to Forest Park.
The Dan Ryan (Red) Line in I-94 south between Cermak-Chinatown and 95/State opened in 1969.
The Kennedy (Blue) Line extension - which is a combination of both subway and median strip route was
opened in 1970 between Logan Square and Jefferson Park - and then extended to O'Hare Airport in 1984.

Baltimore has a segment of the Metro Subway between Old Court and Owings Mills in the median strip
of I-795 Northwest Expressway at the northwestern end of the route.

Washington has Metro routes in Virginia in median strips with part of the Orange Line to Vienna in I-66
and a major segment of the new Silver Line to Dulles Airport runs in the median of the Dulles Toll Road.

A Northeast Subway that would be built totally under ground or on aerial structures above Roosevelt
Boulevard would both be astronomically expensive - a primarily surface rail route using the median
strip routing would have a lower cost and in this case makes the most sense to construct a new rapid
transit line into the heart of Northeast Philadelphia...MACTRAXX
  by PHLSpecial
 
Median highway rail lines is awful I got to say. The stations would need to be above or below the road. Spring Garden station is quite an awful experience because of that. When I was on BART in SF quite an awful experience with a median highway station. I understand making the stations elevated or under the road is expensive but those median stations do not have great ridership numbers outside of 9-5 commuters.

Having stations at highways is a model we need to move away from. Not a great transit experience.
  by ExCon90
 
An apparently universal challenge for transit operations: available rights of way, either disused railroad lines or highway medians, tend not to be where the people are or are otherwise inconvenient for the reasons stated above, and routes where the people are require extensive tunneling. Seems like you can't win. Transit-Oriented Development is a possible solution, requiring a generation or two to have a significant effect.
  by MACTRAXX
 
PHL, EC90 and Everyone:

I fully understand that limited access highway median strip rail routes do have distinct advantages AND
disadvantages to a given routing application - in short PROS and CONS...Advantages in the case of a new
Roosevelt Boulevard rapid transit line is that for the most part the median strip is available for use...
Disadvantages will be special construction that will be necessary to build stations at specific locations -
Oxford Circle and Cottman Avenue/Roosevelt Mall both come to mind with how RB's roadways are set
up with the bridge overpass infrastructure at both of these places...

One of Northeast Philadelphia's most distinct disadvantages for a rail rapid transit routing is the lack of
north-south undeveloped "strips"...One of the only other routes that could have accommodated a rail
transit line width is the "Pennway Corridor" running from RB/Adams and Whitaker Avenues to the north
of Rhawn Street in Pennypack Park paralleling Pennway Street for much of its length which is a PECO
power line route - and has been mentioned in past NE Philadelphia rail transit studies...From a further
look a substantial portion of this corridor goes right through residential neighborhoods without any
nearby commercial development - making NIMBY opposition a HIGH probability along with the route
being to the west of the most populated parts of "The Great Northeast" - and for that matter to the Fox
Chase Regional Rail Line which is in reasonable paralleling distance which for all intents and purposes
rules out virtually any use today of the Pennway Corridor for a rapid transit extension...

In this case - unless one of the north/south streets is used for a lengthy-and VERY EXPENSIVE-subway or
elevated line the only sensible available routing into the population center of Northeast Philadelphia is
by way of Roosevelt Boulevard using the center (or other) median of the RB/US 1 highway northward...
MACTRAXX
  by JeffK
 
rcthompson04 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:17 pm KOP Rail ROW Acquisition Authorized: https://www.inquirer.com/transportation ... 20922.html
Very good news, even if it is 25 years late (!) Even though brick-and-mortar retail is declining space doesn't lie fallow for long. The area's still growing with other uses that would benefit at least as much from transit access.

My worry is that the reality of land acquisition is going to bring the NIMBYs back out again. I've already heard from one America First type that moving the 911 Memorial would be "desecration".
  by PHLSpecial
 
I'm having a hard time to get excited about the KOP project. While it's too late to turn around with the project I am worried that the Roosevelt subway funding will be affected from this.
It's good that rail transit can expand in the Philadelphia region, it's time to have Septa leadership support the Roosevelt subway
  by JeffK
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:48 pm I'm having a hard time to get excited about the KOP project. While it's too late to turn around with the project I am worried that the Roosevelt subway funding will be affected from this.
It's good that rail transit can expand in the Philadelphia region, it's time to have Septa leadership support the Roosevelt subway
I agree that SEPTA should be supporting the Roosevelt Blvd. extension too, but at least as I understand the way New Starts works, what's already been done for KoP wouldn't directly impact $$ for Roosevelt Blvd.

My understanding is that New Starts funding isn't pooled by region, it's national. To posit an extreme case, say somehow KoP were to stop dead in its (unbuilt) tracks. Any work or money already in place at the federal level couldn't just shift to Roosevelt Blvd. It would go back into the national pot and almost certainly be allocated to a project elsewhere in the country that's already at an equivalent stage of planning. Roosevelt Blvd. would have to start from where it is now, which is unfortunately still discussion-only. On top of that there's a window for restarting suspended projects. If it closed then KoP would also fall back to square one. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it just "is".

Where I think RB would be affected is that it often seems SEPTA can't focus on more than one big project at a time. The lugubrious progress on KoP will distract them from pushing any other significant improvements until after the first N-5 stops at the Mall.
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