Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

  by Jeff Smith
trainbrain wrote:<SNIP>Another thing I forgot to mention: The Bronx extension that I mentioned earlier had all 5 trains going up WP Road with the 2. However, the terminal at Wakefied 241st Street probably can't handle both services. It might be a better idea to have 5 trains split between the WP Road and Pelham Lines if the Q ever takes over Dyre Ave. This would give Pelham Line passengers access to an express service in Manhattan.
I think it's been said on here elsewhere the WP Road line is pretty close to capacity, and turns are tough. In addition, the Dyre Ave. only has tail tracks, and no yard to speak of.

Another issue is the difference in A and B division cars. You can't run a Q up WP Road. You might have the clearance on the Dyre, but you'd have to modify all the platforms, and/or reinstate the express tracks from the NYW&B days.

I think if you want it in the Bronx, you'd either have to:

- tie it in to the Concourse Line (B Division),
- run it up the right of way of the NEC to Co-Op City (a former 6-track ROW as far as West Farms/180)

While I like the idea of a reborn 3rd Avenue line in the Bronx (albeit subway vs el), I don't think that will ever happen. I think they'd extend the Concourse line first. As others have said, we'll be lucky to get Phase III or IV.
  by Paul1705
This is a bit of nit-picking perhaps, but the upper White Plains Road line (180th Street and north) was built to Dual-Contract standards so therefore, supposedly, it could be converted to the B division. (The only real world example of this happening I think was the conversion of the Astoria line from IRT to BMT in the late 1940s.)

In fact White Plains Road was one of the options in play during the Second Avenue subway planning of the 1960s and 1970s.

The biggest problem now is that the old NW&B trestle, which had been owned by the city and then the MTA for decades, has been demolished. To really finish that off the real estate parcels from 177th to 180th have been sold and some of the have been filled with new apartment houses.

The original NW&B station, with four tracks and two platforms, is still there but now there is no access from the south.
  by Jeff Smith
They'd have to find some way of bypassing that area... not sure how. Selling those parcels was a mistake.
  by Paul1705
It would definitely have been preferable to preserve those parcels.

After its first few years the MTA hasn't thought in long-term time frames. In 1968-69 they were willing to release a program that was vast by today's standards and yet was expected to be done in maybe fifteen years, possibly twenty in more realistic terms.

Since they got "burned" in the 1970s, the MTA has not planned that way. Right now, they are concerned with rehabbing the existing system, finishing LIRR East Side Access and then, if they can get the money together, get to Phase II of the Second Avenue subway. Probably Metro-North service on the Hell Gate line will happen because it's relatively inexpensive. Anything else rail-based in the Bronx or the other outer boroughs is beyond their interests for the time being.
  by GirlOnTheTrain
Phase 2 has passed some bureaucratic hurdles. ETA 2027 optimistically, subject to change and chance as is the phrase at transit. Read more here: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2018/11/27 ... way-stops/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by Paul1705
I'm surprised they put forth such an optimistic construction schedule. For one thing they don't seem to have secured funding. Also, there are the issues of paying for the Fast Forward plan, other rehab projects, existing debt and so forth.

I had thought the ground-breaking, much less the opening, for Phase II would be after 2030, but we'll see what happens.
  by Arlington
Is it that Phase 2 actually has more of it's route pre tunneled in the c.1970 work? (I seem to recall lots of sections in the 100s 110s streets)
  by Head-end View
This evening NBC news had a report about Phase-2. They toured the already existing tunnels from the 1970's. Looks like not that big of a deal to build the rest of it with tunnels already in place. Not like they have to start from scratch. :wink:
  by Arlington
And is it the case that mostly what's missing from the 1970s tunnel sections is the gaps where the stations were supposed to go? (And what did get built were just the concrete tube/box)? At the dawn of the internet (1994) most graphics for SAS showed "here are the sections that have actually been built."
  by Head-end View
You're right. The sections that are built are just the concrete boxes. But heck, that's half the battle right there already done. :wink:
  by Arlington
I found an example of the image I was picturing, and yes it suggests:
From Top to Bottom:
125th to 120th Unbuilt (needs curve + bellmouth/flyover provisions for Bronx service too)
120th to 110th BUILT (tall tunnel box that allows for 116th St station to be built within it)
110th to 105th Unbuilt (gap includes 106th St, which is a named station)
105th to 99th BUILT
99th to 96th (96th St Station, so does it actually tie as far north as 99th and on into the 1970s section?

So if you call it "30 Blocks", 16 of them were built in the 1970s and 3 may have been built (96 to 99) in Phase 1. So allowing some extra tail and curve, about half of Phase 2 has its tunnel box already.

It is worth re-reading all of Vanshnookenraggen's page on the past and future Second Avenue Subway.
  by Jeff Smith
I looked at that jpg you linked and it irks me. I’m sure I’m not the first to think or say that Phases I and II should have been a single phase. But for want of a few blocks, you could have had a subway to at least 116th, with 125th to follow in short order. 125th could bring much relief to GCS and the Shuttle by moving that connection north to MNRR at 125th.
  by Arlington
Recall that in 2007 this was the schedule for all phases:
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2007/03/12 ... t-t-for-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Timetable of the T
2007-13: Phase 1: Three new stations, 96th, 86th and 72nd streets, with connection to Q station at 63rd Street
2014-18: Phase 2: 125th Street to 96th Street
2015-18: Phase 3: 63rd Street to Houston Street
2017-20: Phase 4: Houston Street to Hanover Square
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
  by Head-end View
Yeah Arlington, that 's a bad joke isn't it........ I agree with Jeff Smith that they should have consolidated the first two phases into one, given that some of the tunnels were already there. :(