SC-44 Siemens Charger Locomotives

The 2nd gen "Surfliners" and the midwest corridor fleet is being built at Rockford IL(Nippon)
as (hopefully) the 3rd gen Superliners for Amtrak will get built there.

Mr. Backshop; Rochelle vice Rockford.

The facility is quite visible to traffic passing by on either I-39 or I-88 as it is located at the interchange between these highways.

David Benton wrote:Thanks,for some reason I thought they were going to be built in the Chicago area.

Pretty sure that's where the power plant is coming from. Cummins is in Indiana. Final assembly by Siemens in CA.

I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse here. Literally.

Since the test engine has yet to fire up,might be quiet at Sacramento after the last ACS-64 heads east,
unless there's plans to build full size mock ups.

Because there are railroads banking on that this thing will exist and run. Its been sold, the contracts have been signed. And the engine that will go inside of this locomotive has not even been turned over in any kind of service yet. As far as we know its been sitting waiting to be used. How can you sell someone a locomotive based on engine technology that has not even turned a wheel yet? Is there a backup plan? Some older prime mover that could work? EMD 710ECO? The two big manufactures of diesel electric locomotives cant even get a Tier 4 engine to function properly. What makes you think that Cummins, with zero full scale locomotive experience is going to just walk in the door and go LOOK WHAT I DID! and its going to just work, with no problems.

The rest of the locomotive, an ACS64 body, propulsion controls trucks etc. is already working proving itself (I will not say totally proven yet) therefore the proverbial cart being all that and the horse being the engine itself.

AMTK822401 wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:Because there are railroads banking on that this thing will exist and run. Its been sold, the contracts have been signed. And the engine that will go inside of this locomotive has not even been turned over in any kind of service yet. As far as we know its been sitting waiting to be used. How can you sell someone a locomotive based on engine technology that has not even turned a wheel yet? Is there a backup plan? Some older prime mover that could work? EMD 710ECO? The two big manufactures of diesel electric locomotives cant even get a Tier 4 engine to function properly. What makes you think that Cummins, with zero full scale locomotive experience is going to just walk in the door and go LOOK WHAT I DID! and its going to just work, with no problems.

The rest of the locomotive, an ACS64 body, propulsion controls trucks etc. is already working proving itself (I will not say totally proven yet) therefore the proverbial cart being all that and the horse being the engine itself.

This is essentially why I bashed them in the first place, we've used medium speed prime movers here since the diesel era began and my understanding is other locos with high speed prime movers (BL20GH?) are always in the shop. I don't see why Amtrak/All Aboard Florida doesn't try to buy something from GE (EVO engine has proven itself in freight and passenger operations in America) It seems as though Amtrak is trying to have everything under one manufacturer for parts commonality. This hasn't really happened since the 70s-80s (EMD for F40PHs and AEM7s) However, in this particular case I don't see it working out. The Cummins engine has never been used in American road service, and Siemens doesn't seem to notice. Is it possible to rebuild the P42s with AC traction and EVO prime movers? Because apparently MPI does not want to build anymore HSP46s after what went on with the MBTA order.

GE went in with MPI on the HSP-46 design instead of building one itself because it saw $$$ to be made selling upgrade kits for older power, and more overall profit selling the component systems rather than taking the risk EMD did with the F125 of trying to swing-or-miss/all-or-nothing on a re-entry into the passenger loco market. So it doesn't matter all that much if MPI bit off more than it could chew with the HSP-46 if other small builders line up to package EVO's and other GE systems into like-minded new makes and like-minded re-powers. In the case of the Genesis, the P32AC-DM and the HSP-46 use the same exact make/model of AC traction motors. So simply outfitting a P42 with the 32's/HSP's still very much in-production motors, the EVO prime mover, and whichever of the HSP-46's electronics mesh best with any retained Genesis parts pretty much does net you a real-deal "P46AC": an HSP-46 in Gennie clothing that's not too far-removed from something proven that it risks stitching together some unwieldy Frankenstein monster. From GE's perspective, they're angling for the "post builder's plate" era. They don't have to bet the farm in-house on a Genesis successor or bet the farm on MPI getting more HSP-46 business if they can sell the systems behind it and pollenate the DNA of the whole passenger loco market such that a majority of these re-powers and majority of these small-builder new makes have an HSP-46's heartbeat under the hood. i.e. The next-generation Genesis is somebody's commuter rail rebuild of an AMTK-dispersal P42 with the HSP-46's prime mover, AC traction, etc. You gotta admit with the F125 already looking like a dead-end lineage with just the Metrolink order to show for itself, EMD's probably going to retreat once more from the passenger biz. GE doesn't have to deal with that risk spreading the field and angling itself an the #1 "organ factory" for everyone else's makes. The HSP-46 can be a dead-end lineage as far as the MBTA's packaging goes, but it won't be like the F125 if the continent's commuter rails are crawling for decades on end with HSP-based repowers and custom makes from every other builder. They corner the market all the same without having a single builder's plate to their name.


In fact, MPI has been focusing lately on gutting old GP40 carbodies and repowering them as generic MP36PH-spec locos (i.e. the Sunrail MP20's: Geep carbody, MP36 components, MP36 cab). So they clearly see a future in re-powers that achieve more or less the same result as a new make without the extra overhead of starting from ground zero. It is quite likely these first-time repowering efforts with the more proven MPXpress spec are the trial for what they see bigger payout for the HSP-46 design than selling more of them in the MBTA's monolithic packaging. Thus, it wasn't a bad investment for them (and definitely not for GE) to develop the new design if the best parts and best-matching systems in the new design bleeds modularly into other products of theirs. Say: an MPXpress offering with the GE guts, or making themselves into one of GE's preferred partners for "Genesis P46AC" rebuilds...or "F40PH-HSP", "F59PHI-HSP", "GP40-HSP", etc. etc. re-powers on whatever carbodies vs. prime mover HP rating combos work best within the weight limits of those older shells. Why shackle onesself to monolithic makes when the rush to Tier IV compliance floods the aftermarket with so much perfectly rebuildable secondhand power. None moreso than the 200+ P42's and 30 active or stored P40's that'll be displaced if the Charger contract's option orders run to completion, and which have the closest lineage to the HSP-46 of any widely-used pre-existing make.

AMTK822401 wrote:

ngotwalt wrote:I'm sorry, but an order for 32 locomotives does not make me fear for the P42s impending doom. Yes there is an option for 225 more, and when that option gets executed, then we can start talking about the last Genesis runs, until then, this is an order for corridor locomotives to go with the new bilevels.
Cheers,
Nick

I think Siemens inexpereince with the realties of American diesel locomotives will make these units fail. What it does mean, however, is Amtrak is actively looking for a replacement for the good ol' Gennies

How do you know these diesels will fail?

Siemens has delivered just about all AC traction systems to EMD, as for experience these days it is EMD who failed their last attempts at passenger power.

ApproachMedium wrote:What makes you think that Cummins, with zero full scale locomotive experience is going to just walk in the door and go LOOK WHAT I DID! and its going to just work, with no problems.

Point well taken. At least for the purposes of this discussion I have to say that the thought of exactly that happening is humorous to say the least. I can just see the Siemens executives crowing over their success in not only entering but potentially conquering the U.S. passenger engine market in the space of less than 10 years.

ApproachMedium wrote:The rest of the locomotive, an ACS64 body, propulsion controls trucks etc. is already working proving itself (I will not say totally proven yet) therefore the proverbial cart being all that and the horse being the engine itself.

I think you were definitely on the mark. It really does seem insane that an untested powerplant is going to be put into the heaviest duty passenger service possible right out of the gate. On the other hand "if" a successful locomotive is built by someone else other than EMD or GE that is a game changer for American passenger rail.

currently a 6 axle locomotive (freight) powered with the QSK95 is being in final stages of being put in service.
final work is being performed at Brookville in Pa.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8674/1642 ... 5fbd_b.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cummins as a class 8 engine provider(truck,tractor/trailer)is a mixed bag at best,when I had truck with Cummins engine,
it was a "SHOP QUEEN",period!
Cummins as a industrial grade generator for standby power, fair at best,as a supplier of genset power pallets for RR use,
jury is still out. UP gensets in local switching service,drag along a GP unit as backup power when out of the yard.
Cummins was tried for HEP use,as I understand it,Cat powered HEP pallets replaced them.
AS a RR prime mover,STILL a R+D project trying to be "fast tracked" to production,scary thought!
Even Cat has had mixed sucess/failure as a RR prime mover in freight service,but still has a better chance
then Cummins to be used a a passenger RR prime mover.

The only redeeming quality here is the QSK95 is also designed as a self contained unit mostly, aimed towards repowering older engines to make them Tier 4 (Any railroad would have to be absolutely insane to re-power something pre Tier whatever to this junk!) So with it being some kind of modular and compatible with other interface systems maybe it could also be yanked out when it fails and replaced with an EMD 710ECO product or the GE EVO upgrade product. Honestly with the success of the last how many years of the GEs as long haul road power for Amtrak i am surprised they did not go with this power package. The upgrades they did for metro north seem to be working out well, though I dont work there if anyone would like to provide further insight on that go right ahead. NS seems to love the crap out of 710 ECO repowers.

Up here in Toronto we haven't even seen the twin QSK60 repower of an MP40 yet, itself a plan B of a QSK95 repower. But we had to have Tier 4 MP40s for political reasons...

ApproachMedium wrote:Honestly with the success of the last how many years of the GEs as long haul road power for Amtrak i am surprised they did not go with this power package.

But has Amtrak itself actually decided on anything yet? The Midwest/Northwest states are the ones buying the base order of 32 Chargers upfront with the 225 option locos being presumably for LD routes.

Perhaps Amtrak wants to wait until the pre-production/1st production Chargers and even F125s leave the factory in order to put all options on the table before making a decision. They're not exactly rolling in dough as it is so whatever they buy to replace/upgrade everything has to be worth the money.