Salamanca Question

I have read a fair amount of Allegany Division material and have never come across any reference to PRR operating over the Erie or EL between Olean and Salamanca before the PRR Salamanca Branch was abandoned in the 1960s. If that can be documented, I'll learn something new.

The topo map that started this thread is indeed strongly suggestive of a connection that crossed the river west of Forbush Lumber. Here again, I can't recall any reference to such a connection, but what shows on the map may be the remnant of an early (ca. 1880s or '90s) connection. I can't think of anything else it would be.

WDB

Talked to a friend a mine who worked on the PRR back to '55. He says the Erie/PRR interchange was handled at Olean. They also would trade a handful of cars at Bradford but the majority I understand would be at Olean.

Charles

pablo wrote:There were also the fun shenanigans that the Pennsy pulled to get something of value for losing their line; they ran about everything they could over the line prior to it closing to demonstrate its value, and then complained how much of a loss it would be. I believe they got free locomotives out of it, whether U25's or Geeps, I don't remember.

Dave, I wish I could find my reference after all these years, but the "railfan legend", for lack of a better term, has it that the PRR shuttled the same string of 40 to 50 empty hoppers back and forth over the line to make it appear that the line was much busier than it actually was. The money the PRR received in reparation for the loss of the line was used as payment on the PRR's first GE U25B's.

pablo wrote:I've seen some anecdotal evidence around Warren that the line between Warren and the dam (or at least closer to it than exists now) lasted a while longer. I believe it was car storage for the refinery, basically, and even today, what was the mainline is now a storage track that ends just shy of the Glade bridge in Warren. There's almost always a tank car at the bumper.

Dave Becker

The line running from what was then the Allegheny Hotel in Warren to the dam did remain intact for many years after the rest of the line was abandoned. I recall that the late Blaine Meade, a Warren County commissioner, had expressed an interest in operating a tourist line from downtown Warren to the dam. As a young (probably overly-enthusiastic) railway buff I actually met Mr. Meade on a Saturday morning to discuss the proposal with him. (I should mention that he was very gracious and shared my enthusiasm. I've always remembered Mr. Meade as a very patient and kind gentleman, not something I would say about too many politicians.) This was long enough ago that my mother had to drive me because I was too young to hold a driver's license. I'm 54 now-you can do the math. The line has only been ripped up since I moved to southern Maryland-I recall seeing the work in progress on one of my yearly forays home in the early 1980's.

Personal aside:Way back in the fall of 1960, when the dam construction site was first dedicated in a large ceremony, Warren County schools were closed that day, so school buses could be utilized to haul the crowds from Warren to the dedication site due to the limited parking.

However, there was also a special passenger train that ran from Warren to the dam site. After all of these years, I can still recall the 2 RS or RSD type locomotives pulling the long string of tuscan passenger cars, riding the short distance from the Warren station to the dam and detraining. Then made a LONG walk to the top of a hill (where the dam is now) and looking back down towards the river at the train. The train departed (I was to learn years later that the locomotives were run around the train at Red House.) and came back later for our return ride to Warren. Recall that Warren still had passenger service at the time between Erie and Emporium.

wdburt1 wrote:I have read a fair amount of Allegany Division material and have never come across any reference to PRR operating over the Erie or EL between Olean and Salamanca before the PRR Salamanca Branch was abandoned in the 1960s. If that can be documented, I'll learn something new.
WDB

I can add, perhaps a little information to this topic. My late Father was able to get a couple of cab rides between Olean and the Kinzua Dam site in the early 1960s. The following is how he described the operation to me:

According to the crew, the tracks, by that time belonged to the contractor who was building the dam. They contracted with the PRR to provide trains and crews, to move stone to the site. I can say with certainty that these stone trains went entirely PRR (or recently-sold, former PRR) lines.

PRR also briefly added a crew between Machias and Olean, that took trainloads of stone from the stone pit at Machias, to Olean. Another crew then took the stone to the dam site.

Art wrote:

Dave, I wish I could find my reference after all these years, but the "railfan legend", for lack of a better term, has it that the PRR shuttled the same string of 40 to 50 empty hoppers back and forth over the line to make it appear that the line was much busier than it actually was. The money the PRR received in reparation for the loss of the line was used as payment on the PRR's first GE U25B's.

Perhaps these stone trains might have been what appeared to be "the same set of hoppers moving back and forth", to build up mileage.

At that time, the line had already been cut in the vicinity of the dam, so these trains were Olean - Kinzua turnarounds.

JR

I was stationed at St. Bonaventure College 1943-4 in the Army's ASTP program. The Pennsy line went right by the edge of the campus and trains could easily be seen from the main class building. During our history class, the westbound wayfreight would usually go by with an I-1 on the point.

jr wrote:Perhaps these stone trains might have been what appeared to be "the same set of hoppers moving back and forth", to build up mileage.

At that time, the line had already been cut in the vicinity of the dam, so these trains were Olean - Kinzua turnarounds.

JR

Thanks JR. That could very well be the explanation. I do recall that this information was relayed to me in the late 1960's by an acquaintence who lived in Salamanca during that time.

More info from my PRR friend (PRR '55):

"The Salamanca Branch of the PRR, which ran from Olean NY to Oil City PA, was still operational until the Kinzua Dam was completed in mid to late 1964.

The sand and gravel used in the dam came from a gravel pit just south of Machias, NY. Olean crews put in 50 mtys and took out 50 loads 5 days a week. The train was given over to another crew at Olean for the run to the dam. That crew took out 50 mtys and spotted the 50 loads and returned to Olean. The gravel and sand was of a very high quality from the Machias pit, that's why it was used.

The Kinzua Dam was started in 1960 and opened in 1965, with a lot of sand and gravel trains in between. Having worked the line on and off from 1955 until its demise, I worked with men who hired from 1912-22 and never heard any of them mention this spur or the use of the Erie from Salamanca to Olean.

The map is from a Merchants Map of Cattaraugus County, circa 1984. The spur is shown heading off the former PRR grade and running across Veterans Memorial Park."

Charles

wdburt1 wrote:I have read a fair amount of Allegany Division material and have never come across any reference to PRR operating over the Erie or EL between Olean and Salamanca before the PRR Salamanca Branch was abandoned in the 1960s. If that can be documented, I'll learn something new.

The topo map that started this thread is indeed strongly suggestive of a connection that crossed the river west of Forbush Lumber. Here again, I can't recall any reference to such a connection, but what shows on the map may be the remnant of an early (ca. 1880s or '90s) connection. I can't think of anything else it would be.

WDB

I am racking my brain to try to remember where I am pulling my thoughts from. I believe it comes from some of the LUMBER RAILROADS SERIES pertaining mostly to Pennsylvania. That would put Tom Taber at the front of the names list. I have one or two of the books, friends have borrowed others, and there are copies in some local libraries...so let me see what I can pull together here over the next couple of days.

The gravel pit to which is referenced is located just off Rt. 16 (Buffalo Crushed Stone). My grandfather told me about the old siding that came off the mainline. I can never remember it being there but it went thru the site of the "dump" next to the Catt County barns. He grew up in the house in front of the pit which is now the office. I know the questions are focused on the Salamaca area but I wanted to share what I knew.

A few observations of possible interest:

1.) The spur off the PRR at Salamanca aims at the bank of the Allegheny at about the only place in the area where it could cross it at more or less a right angle.

2.) If it crossed the river, was it taken out by a flood--say, 1913?

3.) Remember that rights to occupy Seneca Nation lands in Salamanca in the late 1800s and early 1900s were a mix of rights of way or leases of varying validity. Congress dealt with this issue at least once in the latter 19th century, after the Olean & Salamanca (later PRR) was built.

4.) EL/PRR interchange occurred on the interchange tracks in the southeast quadrant of the crossing at X Tower, Olean.

5.) Pietrak's "Western New York & Pennsylvania Railway" includes a diagram (page 11-18) of the extensive WNY&P/PRR infrastructure at Olean. Basically, the PRR yard was aligned along the Salamanca Branch, and connections to the Buffalo-Emporium line formed a wye. The northerly connection was AD block station just south of X Tower. The southerly connection seems not to have been a block station. The west end of the wye was BS block station (Buffalo Street). The shops were along the north leg of the wye. Compare this to the Erie's facilities in the area, and you begin to understand why Olean was always a WNY&P/PRR company town and the point was always made the Erie passed through North Olean, not Olean. Socony Vacuum Oil Company, located in the SW quadrant of the crossing at X Tower, probably did not know the difference.

WDB

OK. My book of maps (National Survey, Chester, VT, c1915-17) does not show the PRR crossing the river until south of Carrolton...Riverside Jct to be exact.

And now I am leaning toward the Lumber Railroads of Pennsylvania series for finding basis for my understanding of PRR trackage rights on the Erie. It would have to be in one of the books that deals with McKean area counties.

henry6 wrote:And now I am leaning toward the Lumber Railroads of Pennsylvania series for finding basis for my understanding of PRR trackage rights on the Erie. It would have to be in one of the books that deals with McKean area counties.

henry6-Not the answer you're looking for, however, I found this on page 6-10 in "Western New York & Pennsylvania" by Pietrak, Streamer & Van Brocklin: Quoting a Bradford newspaper article published in April 1896, the text states "The narrow gauge from Olean to Bradford is to be abandoned. Trains will use the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh from Riverside to Kendall. (Author's note: The WNY&P had trackage rights over the BR&P from Riverside Junction to Bradford.) The line from Bradford to Marshburg will be standard-gauged. Standard-gauge trains then could operate into Bradford from Kinzua & Riverside. In exchange, the WNY&P will give the BR&P use of its terminal in Buffalo."

A picture on page 9-16 shows a McKeen motor car, PRR #4701, sitting in front of a brick passenger station, again stating that the PRR maintained passenger service into Bradford from Riverside Junction over trackage rights on the BR&P.

Just dug out my copy of "Sawmills Among The Derricks" by Thomas T. Taber III that covers McKean County. Still looking for the elusive PRR-Erie connection...

I consulted Pietrak's "Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway" to see if any information could be gleaned. I was thinking that there was the possibility that the BR&P branch to downtown Salamanca crossed the Erie at about Main St., continued parallel in a west direction, then turned and crossed the river.

All I could find was a reference to the Salamanca and Warren Railroad which was organized as a construction company. Apparently there was enough opposition from the PRR interests that the line was never built.

Or was it? Back then they appeared to build first and settle property disputes at a later time. They may have built up to the PRR line but were denied the request to join rail.

Interesting thread...

From the image taken of the area near the "Y" it certainly looks like there was additional trackwork there that I did not know existed.

A while back, I did some research on the dates that various lines in Cattaraugus County were constructed. (I don't have the reference material handy for the following, so if it's wrong, feel free to correct it):

The line from Oil City to Salamanca was completed in 1880. And the line from Salamanca to Olean was completed in 1882. This leaves a one-to-two year frame, when trains from Oil City would presumably terminate at Salamanca. Would they have reason to go right to the River? Perhaps they transloaded freight and/or passengers to shallow draft boats on the River?

Just an idea to ponder.

JR