Running Long-Hood Forward

UPRR Engineer, just curios on the topic of mirros. Do the UP wide-bodies have a small mirror under the engineer's window which shows the man on the front step. (Since you have no view of the front step, CSXT's wide-bodies have this small mirror so the engineer can look at the regulare mirror and see the smaller mirror which will give a view of the front step.)

When I worked on the road I have had an occasional UP or BNSF locomotive, but it is never the leader because the line between Boston,Ma & Selkirk (Albany), NY requires can signals.

Ya they do on some of them CSX Conductor, i never use it sence my head is out the window to see them get off. It was a good idea, but the set up sucks.

I have made some pretty long shoves, or back-up moves as well. I will switch ends, however, and run the engine that is facing the direction of the movement, regardless of where in the consist it is. As far as refusing to do something that is wrong, unsafe or dangerous, why not ? The folks who will do whatever is asked of them, no matter how wrong, unsafe or dangerous are the ones who make it bad for the rest. If everyone refused to run a tabletop backwards, you would never be put into such a position. When one guy does it, that becomes the "example" the managers will use, to show you it can be done. "well, Joe did it, so why cant you ?" I am not going to do something unsafe, or dangerous, under anyones orders. My union, and my unions' lawyer, are there to protect me, and my brothers & sisters, in these types of situations. Thinks about "SAFETY-FIRST", "WHEN IN DOUBT, TAKE THE SAFE COURSE" etc... If I feel it is unsafe, or that it could risk the lives of the crew, or the public, the management cannot say anything. We are the only ones, responsible for our own actions. The carrier cannot force you to do anything unsafe, illegal or dangerous. More than once, I have REFUSED a direct order, to do something unsafe. I was always at work, the following day. Never had a hearing, and ultimately, I got the respect of the person, who realized I was not going to "lay-down", or cut corners, for him, or anybody else. I see a lot of these "new-guys" who seem terrified of confronting an official, or refusing to do something that they know is wrong. Contrary to what they would have you believe, the carrier is not God. You have the right to work safely. It's right there in the rulebook. I am flexible, and I "choose my battles wisely", but I will not work unsafely, under anyones order. That's just me, though. Your actual experiences may vary

Now your confusing me buddy, whats unsafe about it? Or is it just not to your liking? Another thing ive done that maybe you havent, what happens when theres cars on both ends of you? The cars roll both ways as do the units.

I think we are seeing the line where ive done more local work on the mainline and your more over the road.

23 years of doin' this now, I would guess that about a 50/50 split would be a fair estimate, of running time road versus locals/yard work. Cars on either end, no big deal. Cabooses, whether "hopped" or run on the train, pulling or shoving, no difference. If you don't know what is unsafe about running a tabletop engine backwards, again, I don't know what to say. try driving your car to work, in reverse. That might give you a few thoughts. It has a rearview mirrow, so it shouldn't be that difficult. There is a reason for the control stand beside you. There is also a reason for the tabletop. NS has the "new" units, with the "crew cabs", but guess what, they have a conventional control stand. This is done to be able to run the unit in either direction, not to keep the crews from putting their feet up. Have you seen a 4 axle unit with a tabletop ? They get run more on locals, and on switchers, yet I haven't seen one. Could it be that the railroad knows it would not be safe, or practical, to try to run one of those, on a local, or in the yard ? Hard to say, but there is just as much room in the cab for a tabletop, on a 4 axle, as there is on a 6. I am suprised your union has not given you any instructions regarding this. On the UP, in Houston, the BLE does not consider this to be an option. you run it forward, or the railroad must turn it, or provide another motor. Running these engines backwards, on the road, is not even an option. In fact, it is unheard of. Have not worked on a property, where this was even considered. Maybe things are just "different" out there in the big-sky country ? I would LOVE to see an engineer, in court, trying to justify his actions, due to a grade crossing accident, regarding running a tabletop engine backwards, with a train. (no, I am not saying I would love to see another accident, for those reading along ) He would have absolutely no defense. I would even imagine the carrier testifying "he was not ordered to do this, in fact, we didn't know he was even running backwards." Why put yourself in that position, in the first place. These engines were not meant to be operated in reverse. Period. Regards

As another point of interest, in the matter of running long hood forward, with tabletop control stand equipped locos, another engineer and I were just discussing this interesting fact. Other than the NS locos, which were equipped with conventional stands anyways, how many of the new tabletop locos have ditch lights on the rear ? UP didn't have them when I was there. CP Rail didn't have them either. SP units also did not have them. What more can I say. If they were intended to run backwards, the railroads would have ordered, or the builders would have installed, ditch lights on the long hood end. CP went so far as to only install a single headlight bulb, on the rear end of their road units. This goes for those with conventional stands as well. Generally speaking, six axle units were/are intended to be run in a forward direction. You could run one backwards, but you could also drive your car backwards. Which way seems safer to you ? Regards

Good point about the lack of ditch lights on the long hood of newer road engines. Another reason why we can't run them long-hood is that they were not built with cab signal equipment for long-hood moves.

Ah yes, cab signals. Now there is a whole other can of worms, altogether. I am not sure, if they use them out there where UPRR comes from, but I would be willing to bet, those units aren't set up to run them backwards, anyways. I think the issue of "taking a stand" really frightens some people. I always figured that's what job insurance was for. I won't be one, running a loco backwards, unless it was built, and equipped, to run that way. Conventional stands are fine, as long as the ditch lights are present. My loco I am using now, is actually a pretty good unit, and I have grown to like the set-up, in a very short time. The Geep is a lot smaller than the SD's, though, and I might not be as comfortable, or happy, running one of those 40's "hammerhead" style all day, even though they are set up to run that way. (ex-SOU, NW and current NS units being the point of my comment here) Regards

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:and I might not be as comfortable, or happy, running one of those 40's "hammerhead" style all day, even though they are set up to run that way

or breathing in diesel fumes all day

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:I think the issue of "taking a stand" really frightens some people. I always figured that's what job insurance was for.

But wouldn't the railroad would probably try consider that insubordination, and job insurance usually doesn't cover insubordination.

The railroad would always "try" to apply discipline, in their favor. Lot's of folks use job insurance, in this case. The railroad will usually not prevail, in cases of "insubordination", when it comes down to a safety issue. A good LC will provide a well thought out, and vigorous defense, often with the "help" of the Locals' attorney, providing "behind the scenes mentoring" in this area. You are usually held out of service pending the outcome, and a safety issue is not really defendable, by the carrier. You will be re-instated,, with back pay, and that's what the job insurance covers. You must "pick and choose" your battles, and know what is defendable, as unsafe, and what isn't. No armrests isn't unsafe, but no side window is. Like I already mentioned, you can always "go home sick". Who can say whether your migrane is real, or not ? Even the company doctor can't say, with any degree of certainty, what is, or isn't wrong with you. Also a good person to have "in your corner", your local (regional) FRA MP&E man, and/or the OP man. Sometimes just mentioning this persons name, to a stubborn manager, with the implication of your impending cell phone call, to his home, will quickly eliminate whatever problem you might have been experiencing. Be advised, however, this will ultimately paint a HUGE bulls-eye, on your back, so you've got to be on your toes, and always bring your "A" game, with you. I refused to run many a six-axle backwards, and never lost a minute off the job. Along with this, however, I would always do anything asked of me, as part of the job, or as a "favor". While taking that stand might be necessary at times, being a "team player" always, works best in the long run, and you can actually do both, at the same time. The boss can't be too pissed today, if he knows what jam you helped him out of yesterday. A finely balanced game, of give-and-take, is how I play it. Regards

When I was employed by the Gateway Western we were often forced to run "backwards" from E. St. Louis to Mexico, MO. This was roughly 150 miserable miles. At Roodhouse, IL. there was/is a wye, however, we were often refused permission to wye our power. More than once we accomplished, this "on the sly." This was/is TWC territory, no circuits to rat one out. Roodhouse was yard-limits, no rules violated. On the plus side, the power was old, hammered Geep 38's and Geep 40's. Running these puppies backwards is no where near the ordeal the table-tops are. The crews that really took a hosing was the west-end guys that took over at Mexico. The route west to Kansas City was one hogback/curve after another, a real kick in the scrotum running long-hood forward!

Why dot they provide cameras , as in backing cameras on trucks / buses ? that would cover blindspots when going round curves etc .

David Benton wrote:Why dot they provide cameras , as in backing cameras on trucks / buses ? that would cover blindspots when going round curves etc .

$$$$$$$$$$$

Ah yes, yet another "nail in the coffin", as to why locos shouldn't be run backwards. (six axles, anyways) The railroads are now purchasing their new power, with video cameras installed, supposedly for grade crossing accident documentation. The cameras are probably the cheapest part of this system, compared to the recorder, etc. I would bet money that these new locos don't have this camera also mounted on the rear. It would be real simple to have it selected by the reverser, much like the dual horns on a lot of those NS units, which have a horn on each end. Only the lead horn blows, and this is determined by position of the reverser handle. No rear cameras, means no backwards running. The railroad knows this, when they order the units. Check out one of those new units, and see for yourself. I would imagine the toilet costs more, than a second camera would. They are actually very inexpensive, not counting the price of a weatherproof housing unit. We were ordered many a day, to run a unit backwards, on the I&O. No problem, we would tell the TM. Next thing we did, was call NS Newcastle DS, for a "trip around the wye" out of McCullough yard. The TM never knew, Newcastle didn't care, and we ended up with forward facing power, at each end of the consist. Total time "wasted" making this move? 15 minutes, each time we did it. I would say that the safety of the crew, as well as the public, was well worth those 15 minutes we "wasted" doing this. This is just me, though, as some folks would rather give in, than to do it right. My .02 cents, anyways. Regards