• Rochester & Southern Railroad (RSR) Discussion

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

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  by HexOmega2319
 
Matt Langworthy wrote:The turn to Groveland returned to the Brooks Ave Yard early on Friday afternoon. I had been parked at Behan Road since 9 AM on Friday morning, so I suspect the train elft earlier than usual.
There's no such thing as a "Turn to Groveland". Groveland is only a station sign on the G&W sub that only gets passed on runs to AMP in Dansville. The train you saw was the BL1. The local is not a regular job and runs as an extra when needed. That particular day it started at midnight, but usually it runs Monday-Wednesday-Friday anytime usually between1630-2000 depending on the power situation.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
Does BL1 run to Groveland? (Thatis where the mine is located.) Or does it run to Silver Springs?
  by BR&P
 
Matt, Don't get technical and say Groveland is where the mine is. It's already been stated that " Groveland is only a station sign on the G&W sub that only gets passed on runs to AMP in Dansville". Railroads don't necessarily agree with the map that's in the GPS or the glove compartment of your car. That may be true in a geographical context but we're talking railroad operations here.

It's somewhat like the difference between compass and timetable direction. If the employee timetable states the direction from A to B is westward, to the railroad that is what direction the train is going. The tracks may twist around in some places so a train from A to B is - at that point - going due EAST, but it's still a westbound train.
  by HexOmega2319
 
Thanks for helping me clarify that BR&P. The BL1 will only ever go as far as Pavilion to service Jeffries and Hanson, or Retsof to service Linwood, the small ARS plant or the Retsof Shop. The R&S is a North/South railroad and the station signs aren't exactly accurate to their actual location.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
The clarification on BL1 is appreciated. I saw that run returning to the Brooks Avenue Yard around mid-morning, with #50 leading and a GP40 (#3101?) on the rear of the train. I've chased that local before. Although I didn't know the symbol until now, I knew it was the Leroy/Pavillion local based on the consist.

My sighting in previous posts references another R&S local with 5 Geeps (led by #879), which returned to the Brooks Avenue Yard in the early afternoon. It had a long string of covered hoppers plus 1 flatcar full of logs. Was this train coming back from the mine or not? Instead of arguing semantics, can someone answer the question?
  by BR&P
 
"instead of arguing semantics..." Matt, some people actually care about getting things right.

Were the covered hopper loaded GNRW cars? That might be a clue.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
BR&P wrote:"instead of arguing semantics..." Matt, some people actually care about getting things right.

Were the covered hopper loaded GNRW cars? That might be a clue.
I actually do care about getting it right, too. That is why I am asking the question! The mine is in Groveland- so that is right. BTW, the spur was built around 2000 or so, so referring to Groveland (as opposed to an arcane station name) seems logical to me.

Anyway, I will refer to my photos when I get home and let you know what the reporting marks were.
  by BR&P
 
Matt, you still don't get it. The mine is NOT in Groveland in railroad terms. You've got a guy who works there who tells you that Groveland is just a sign on the way to Dansville. Are you saying he does not know where the railroad goes? It's on the line PAST Mt. Morris, give or take 7 miles BEYOND where the spur to the mine comes off. So a train from Rochester to the mine and return does NOT go to Groveland. If you want to go to a geography forum, fine, the mine is in Groveland in a municipal sense. But if you come on a railroad forum, and ask where the train went, please take the time to get out some maps, an Official Guide, maybe do some Google Earth looking, and try to comprehend the difference.
  by thebigham
 
Matt Langworthy wrote:The clarification on BL1 is appreciated. I saw that run returning to the Brooks Avenue Yard around mid-morning, with #50 leading and a GP40 (#3101?) on the rear of the train. I've chased that local before. Although I didn't know the symbol until now, I knew it was the Leroy/Pavillion local based on the consist.

My sighting in previous posts references another R&S local with 5 Geeps (led by #879), which returned to the Brooks Avenue Yard in the early afternoon. It had a long string of covered hoppers plus 1 flatcar full of logs. Was this train coming back from the mine or not? Instead of arguing semantics, can someone answer the question?
Could the 2nd train be a late Silver Springs run?
  by HexOmega2319
 
The train you are referring to is the RS2. It's on duty at 2200 as the RS1 and brings the NS billed loaded salt hoppers along with any NS billed empties from R&S and LA&L customers. It interchanges with the H52 at Silver Springs and returns as the RS2 with empty salt hoppers and loaded customer cars for the R&S and LA&L.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
BR&P wrote:Matt, you still don't get it. The mine is NOT in Groveland in railroad terms. You've got a guy who works there who tells you that Groveland is just a sign on the way to Dansville. Are you saying he does not know where the railroad goes? It's on the line PAST Mt. Morris, give or take 7 miles BEYOND where the spur to the mine comes off. So a train from Rochester to the mine and return does NOT go to Groveland. If you want to go to a geography forum, fine, the mine is in Groveland in a municipal sense. But if you come on a railroad forum, and ask where the train went, please take the time to get out some maps, an Official Guide, maybe do some Google Earth looking, and try to comprehend the difference.
I am not talking in RR terms. Apparently you fail to realize that. Bing Maps lists the mine's location as Groveland. My paper maps and trusty road atlas also show the location as Groveland. I am beating this drum so the layman who does not have a guide or track chart knows where to look. Geez!

Now, I did follow your advice and checked my photos. Most of the hoppers were GNWR.
  by BR&P
 
I think most of the folks who care enough to read this thread have a pretty good idea of where the salt mine is. I dare say a large percentage of them, when they hear "Groveland" think of the DL&W and the facilities that used to be there, or the nice depot. Other than your posts, I have never heard anyone speak of the salt mine as being at Groveland. It's not even on the same branch of the railroad. Let's give the majority of readers of this thread credit for not being laymen, but rather people with a good working knowledge of railroad geography and operations. Speaking in railroad terms would be quite appropriate on here.

Were those GNWR covered hoppers loaded or empty?
  by Matt Langworthy
 
I don't know if the hoppers were loaded or empty.

In regards to location names, there has been a healthy debate in other posts on this forum and several Facebook groups about using RR terminology that even seasoned railfans don't know. For example, a couple of posters were referring MP 223 on the SOUL in a Facebook group... and some of us had NO clue what they meant. They were referring to a particular point on the NS Southern Tier Mainline at Owego, but not everyone who read it understood. It's important to remember that experts and laymen alike read these posts... so IMO we should try to make it easy for anyone who reads it to comprehend what/where we are discussing. Hampton Corners doesn't come up on Bing maps... but Groveland does. Someone might actually be trying to locate the mine for a chase of his/her own.
  by BR&P
 
OK Matt, I give up. I won't waste any more electrons. Call the mine Groveland if it makes you happy. Never mind that the mine is on the 3.4 mile American Rock Salt Branch, while Groveland is at MP 24.4 on the Genesee & Wyoming Subdivision, and several miles away from the mine. Maybe HexOmega should ask the powers that be to revise their employee timetable. :P

You watched all those covered hoppers go by and didn't even notice whether they were loaded or empty. An astute railfan can tell a lot about what he is seeing if he knows what to look for. Not telling you HOW to watch trains, but if you care to know, take a look at the truck springs - loaded salt cars will have the springs compressed, while an empty will have the springs more extended. It does not work for a car of feathers, but for a full load of rock salt it provides a pretty good clue.
  by sd80mac
 
matt -

you can tell if the car is loaded or not.. look at the springs in the truck.. if it's compressed, its loaded... otherwise (u get the idea) it's not that hard to tell..


and take a look... copy and paste from google map...

American Rock Salt
5520 New York 63
Mt Morris, NY 14510

also gas station off the 390 exit have that town and zip code...
and Livingston county highway dept, about a mile south of mine, 1/4 mile from rt 408, have that town and zip code

take a look at 1st map.. that area where the mine is considered as Hampton Corner

and look at 2nd map. It shows that it's town of Groveland but it is way TOO BROAD and not accurate. when everyone talk about "groveland", then they meant that they are talking about that little village with circle marked on RT 63 far down south. NOBODY talk about "town of Groveland". The purpose of "Town of Groveland" is for politic crap language. If you call 911 and say there's accident (or fire) in town of Groveland. That does not help 911 dispatcher at all... your "town of Groveland" does not help us ta all because we are thinking that you meant a village 7 miles south. AND we know that mine is at hampton corner. We have been using that name for past many years and why you decide to use different name now????
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