Retirements and Disposition of CR Equipment

GP40MC1118 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:34 pm The 15 F40PH-2's stored down in Rochester since 2015-16 are finally being disposed of. Going up for auction soon. Ozark Mountain Railcar is handling the auction.

Those F40s are in such bad condition (as you said on FB) who is going to want them besides Costello dismantling

Wouldn't surprise me if LTE gets in on it for the trucks and other usable parts. I'd be shocked if they are not cut up on site.

The F40PHs are in better condition than a lot of the GG1 sitting out there and lot more historically important. Just setting one up and letting the public walk around inside of it would be a real good educational opportunity. Unfortunately historical importance when it comes to modern equipment isn't considered the only things considered is Foamers likeing it and "if I watched it with my daddy in the 1950s". Never mind a midlife crisis it triggers in the Boomers who run these museums.

Auction date now set for August 10-11.

Ham40PH wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:03 pm The F40PHs are in better condition than a lot of the GG1 sitting out there and lot more
historically important. Just setting one up and letting the public walk around inside of it
would be a real good educational opportunity.

Unfortunately historical importance when it comes to modern equipment isn't considered.
Never mind a midlife crisis it triggers in Boomers who run these museums.

F40s more historically significant than GG1? Most would disagree on that, though the F40s ended up as the
standard of North American passenger rail during their production run at EMD (1976-1987) and continuing
at MK/MPI well into the 1990s.

As for modern (1960s-) equipment, those who grew up often find in hard to realize that the equipment
they saw delivered new would become old. At NYTM for example, much of the excursions focus on prewar
equipment, and while the postwar fleet is loved too, some are too recent or too similar to cars in active
service and not yet to be point of being viewed as "classic cars". So there is a grey area: equipment not
old enough to be truly deemed "antique" or historic, but still fairly recent or modern on most minds.

Some equipment, such as RDCs, Lackawanna electric MUs, Reading Blueliners and LIRR MP72/75s, became
the choice of museums and short lines. But looking more recent, there hasn't been much interest for buyers
in post-1965 stock, except with the low door Comet I fleet for NJT (popular with aftermarket buyers). Only
recently were the first Amfleets sold to a private excursion service. From this point on, equipment seems to
bland and slim, as the single level Comets remained in production for 30 years, and now bilevel/multilevel
coaches are the norm. The last private (non-subsidy or government owned) passenger equipment were
UP and KCS coaches from St. Louis and Pullman respectively in 1965 and the bulk of both fleets are now
owned by NCDOT, meaning anything after due for preservation or aftermarket sale will be government
developed, such as the Comet I.

F40s are, without question, of greater historical significance than GG1s. The GG1 was in service for an impressive 48 years in the northeast region, while the F40 design has had a broad continental presence for 46 years and many are slated to last decades more. There were 139 GG1s built, and 506 F40s. The F40 was the first locomotive to become Amtrak's systemwide diesel standard, and the F40s in question were the first locomotive built new for the (then) newly formed transit authority encompassing Boston's regional passenger service. The GG1 may be older and more beloved by railfans, particularly those with a few more years behind them, but that is not what historical significance is based on.

Apples and grapefruits...both locomotives have their own unique
characteristics and why does it have
to be “either or?”

It isn't "either/or," it's that if one type of locomotive far more specific in its representation of the industry is historically significant enough to be preserved in museums thousands of miles from where it ever ran, surely a much more broadly representative model is of greater historical significance. It's a tough pill to swallow for those who regard anything built after the 1950s as modern, but the history books never say "The End."

The point of Ham40, which I was validating, is that the 15 screamers that are up for auction are at least as worthy of preservation as the GG1, which is very, very well preserved.

The F40PH seems pretty ordinary. Apparently, represents the first generation with HEP alternators. Uses the widespread EMD 645 prime mover. Not the first diesel loco, not the first diesel/electric. The CG1 seems more noteworthy

So it should be preserved because it was so common? For it's angular styling? For the wide cab? Because the HEP came off of the prime mover instead of a separate engine, making it inefficient? I guess, and since many samples are still available it's easy to preserve.

475 F40PH locomotives were built by EMD/GMD, plus 31 more by M-K and MPI, so there's no shortage of potential museum units. (139 GG1 units were made, with 15 preserved in various conditions, for reference.)

MBTA 1000-1017 don't have any special significance as F40PH units - they weren't the first nor last built, and they were rebuilt in the late 1980s. Certainly it's worth preserving #1000 as the first new locomotive that the MBTA ordered, though. It's unfortunate that there's not any heritage railroads/museums in eastern Massachusetts that could have a similar relationship with the MBTA as the Seashore does for subway cars and buses.

GG1's got preserved in large numbers not because it was historically significant but because every museum board member around in the 90's had a Lionel GG1 trainset as a kid....

The F40PH is as significant as late model E units are... They'll be preserved in working order once they start being retired from their second homes...



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Alright, the F40PH auction is over and the 15 engines are no longer listed on Ozark's website. Last I saw MBTA wanted $35,000 for each of the F40s. I wonder if any one or company acquired them for that price. I guess we will find out since on the auction there was a buyers premium of an extra $5000 which included interchanges to CSX covered by Ozark Mountain Railcar. However I think most if not all will be scrapped on sight.

JacobKoppel wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:59 pmHowever I think most if not all will be scrapped on sight.

Based on what?

I checked the auction about an hour prior to its closing, it appeared no one had bid and there was a reserve anyway. I would assume the trucks and blocks are salvageable. If MPI or someone wanted to do a full rebuild and resale of them (to Metra maybe?) I think that would be feasible. I watch OMR for fun and there's seldom much movement, IPH's liquidation has been going on for a couple years now, so it's no surprise to me that locomotives on the market for a couple days didn't get any bites.

A former EMD employee on the Rail Preservation News webpage thread about these engines had this to say: A friend who inspected the MBTA auctioned F40PH locomotives commented that in his opinion only two of these units had any reasonable (economic) possibility of being returned to service.

Ozark Mountain Railcar lists 13 of the 15 F40s sold. No other info as to the buyer or what two units did not sell.