Results of a sold EMD

It is to bad someone can't do to the epa what the epa done to emd :P I know in the marine business cat. pretty much took over where EMD was king it was a sad day to see it come to this :( I have very little use for a caterpillar except to spray it with bug killer :-D Guess i feel this way because i make my living rebuilding EMD engines in the marine industry. One thing for sure Cat. will never build a engine that can run with a EMD

I can't say I love the EPA (I think they're an overweight political beast that's more of a block to actual environmental improvement than anything else at this point), but the reality is there's plenty of room to improve rail diesels, and GE picked up on that. And EMD didn't. Right now, a new prime mover design is pretty much out of the question - that's a multimillion dollar, multiyear effort. Not something I'd expect now.

Sure the GEVO is cleaner than EPA regs, I bet GE can and knows how to get a LOT more (less?) out of it. Hey - GM had the world's biggest database and the industry's top brainpower (say what you want about their cars, GM still leads just about everything in automotive research). They didn't throw it at a prime mover, and now the 710, etc are basically on death row.

I bet if GM wanted to go head to head with GE on the emissions front, they could have REALLY turned up the pressure, and the public (and RRs, for that matter) would have reaped a huge payout in the form of better, cleaner rail diesels.

I suspect GM saw the writting on the wall for EMD, though, and decided not to throw the resources at them. They must have been looking for a buyer for a long time...

Interesting comment about GM leading in automotive research, but on the other hand, GM seems to have had a problem with the different divisions talking to each other. The best/worst example was the first (Oldsmobile?) diesel back in the 1970s. GE owned EMD and DDA at the time, but IIRC Olds did the design themselves, putting new heads on the 350 block, without any input from EMD or DDA.

Yet in previous times, EMD, DDA and the Cleveland marine engines all pretty much came from the same R&D lab, and one plant made the unit injectors for all the diesels. Times have changed-

Instead, they wasted their resources trying to convince customers to stay with their outdated designs. Look where thats got them...a few orders trickeling in here and there while GE has a 1000+ unit (and growing) backlog of Evolutions, and CAT has taken over the business.

I couldn't disagree more. EMD has/does have problems, but the 710 engine has NOT been on of them. I think if you asked most chief mechanical officers, shop men and train engineers, they would pick the old 710 over the FDL and probably the GEVO any day. If there was a demand for the 4 stroke, EMD would be selling the "H". GE sells a four stroke because that's all they have ever had. EMD can offer both, and the market has spoken about which one they want. Sure, GE outsells EMD, but the prime mover AIN"T THE REASON. I still find it funny that with Tier II, the "antique" 710 sailed through certification and the "Modern" FDL bit the dust. If the 710 does indeed go away, it will be because of the EPA's arbitrary regulations, not market dissatisifaction.

GM doesn't innovate automotivewise? Heck - my '87 Celebrity had distributorless ignition. Honda didn't have it until the late 90's, and even today, I believe a few Toyotas don't either. GM innovated fuel injection (back in the 50's on the Corvettes), automatic transmissions (Far ahead of the rest of Detroit and still better than the Japanese), EFI, air bags (I believe were in fact a GM invention), instrumented crash testing, etc etc etc.

No doubt the Japanese build a world class car. But GM can (and has) done so also. And frankly, if you've ever looked at a Honda automatic transmission vs a GM, you can see it in the design - GM is simply ahead of the Japanese (though Toyota's autos are darn good) in transmissions still (I won't get into the horrid Nissan ones, which are junk, IMHO). GM's running the radiator fans off of the computer's inputs (which lets the do all sorts of fun things to control them), Honda even today has those nice thermostat switches that wear out, drift, and break.

I won't get into Honda dealers - the ones out here are barely a notch below BMW on the jerk scale.

Oh yeah, why the heck is it, that in this day and age, Honda *still* can't come out with a timming belt that can be trusted beyond 60,000 miles, and why do they *still* use the horrid water pump setup where if the pump leaks, the timming belt's in serious danger of slipping or breaking?

And don't get me started on what an obsolete crappy hack VTEC really is. Everyone else firgured out how to do real variable timming years ago.

Toyota? They might surpass GM. But I suspect they'll ultimately not be #1. Right now, they're putting their eggs in the gutless wondercar basket (which, besides their excellent pickup trucks, is about all they're good at).

What's going to REALLY be a problem for Toyota, at least in the US, is simple: The average age of Toyota ownership is increasing. Nobody wants to be seen driving an 'old peoples car' - that's what killed Oldsmobile and Buick.

This is the last (and only post) I will make here about automobiles. (I think)
I was at a used car sale last Saturday and there was almost every GM car from 1999 to 2005. I agree that the interiors, ergonomics, comfort are not the best. Quite frankly, the interior of most of the newer GM cars (at this sale) are worse than the interior in our 1995 Plymouth Voyager. I think that the interior of our 1988 SAAB 900 hatchback is (almost) better!! They should have never killed the Caprice. That was my $.004.

keep asking keep learning

The latest thing I have heard is that GE Evolution prime movers are blowing up with boring regularity.

I have heard (from one source only, so take this with the customary grain of salt) that GE thought they could meet the horsepower target with a 12-cylinder engine. Apparently, they can't.

I am also told GE is the favorite locomotive of the RR accountants, but the mechanical side would prefer EMD. Consider carefully: how many GE U-boats (or B and C-series) are being rebuilt versus how many second generation EMD units?

Sam

Great point! GE was cunning in business where EMD wasn't. GE would always accept trade in power and if the trades were GE, the premuim was higher. EMD did not follow this pattern.

The result? A flood of used EMD power in the aftermarket, and a source of core material for rebuilding and remanufacturing.

But by controlling the pool of used power out in the market, GE sewed up the supply decades ago. So, GE can sell power at relatively low prices because they know that when it comes time for repairs and overhauls, GE is the only source of materials.

So, pay me now or pay me later. Given the attention to cash flows, the bean counters need to add their 2 cents, but I am sure the CMO's have a lot to say too.

I dont know how many of you that have spoken up here work in train service for a class 1 but as far as the UP goes they still love what EMD is selling. Things have just changed a bit here in the last couple months to a year. The whole GE Evolution has got there attention now. When the UP started looking into buying a crap load of SD 70's my MOP at the time was the senior MOP in our service unit. Im guessing the boys in Omaha thought enough of him to want his input on locomotive design, what it was gonna be like for our crews and what not. When he came back he said that we were gonna see alot of new units (70's) with the old style air controls (non-electric/computer controlled) and gauges on the stand, no computer screens like the SD 90's have, they were looking into the ease of maintance, just like the SD 40-2's which like someone said on here, which are still out there pulling freight today. I dont know exactly where he went or who he met with but thats just what he had to say when he came back and he seemed pleased with our new order with EMD.

Now this is my opinion. In my experiences in running both brands of locomotives, the GE's have caused me the most problems. Electronic air brakes, computer display, traction motor faults, the AC's kick and buck when starting and stopping and when you stall out, the desk top style control stand shakes and shimmies and rattles, pain in the ass for me and the pit guys to trouble shoot, slow to respond to throttle changes. I've had some of the same problems with the EMD SD 90's but not as often. Maybe there not following GE's every move, holding back to see what happens. Im sure theres something on the drawing board some where at EMD. Id choose to sit on a set SD 40's any day before jumping on some new GE's. EMD is more hoghead freindly to a guy that know how to run and likes doing it. Like i said at the start, i dont know how many of you who are bashing GM/EMD and never ran what they are selling. A SD 70 or 40 isnt like driving a Geo metro around, its more like a Hummer or Escalade EXT.

Reading what the editor of Trains magazine had to say about a EMD locomotives, and then to compair it to a GM car you purchased, and then say that EMD sucks with out ever running one. -shakes his head- Feel free to chime in again if your one of these people. I'd like to hear what you have to say again now.

GE I believe are poorly made units. EMD units are good quality I believe.

On one hand, GM has been very good at keeping their heads up their a**es for thirty years. But then you see a late model Toyota w/ a hood prop-rod rather than gas shocks. I think EMD was sold because a business must concentrate on its core competency. In 1930 it was making engines at GM. Now, the core competency is marketing autos. It made sense in 1930 or even 1970 to keep EMD. It doesn't now.

As another example, consider this: Both Studebaker and Alco, the weak stepchildren of autos and locos, are still around and now combines under the Worthington companies. Business has to react to market pressures or die.

AmtrakFan wrote:GE I believe are poorly made units. EMD units are good quality I believe.

IIRC, Conrail's last order of GE locomotives caused them to turn away from GE, permanently as it turned out.

In the early 1990's, GE had major problems with locomotive software, which reduced availability something fierce. I was told (above disclaimer applies) a number of software engineers were unceremoniously fired from GETS as a direct result of the fiasco.

This time around, the problem is excerbated because GETS outsourced too much design work to India. It's not that the Indian engineers are incompetent; it's more that they cannot receive the feedback the EMD ones are getting.

EMD has problems to be sure. I was told by this source to unload any GM stock I might have, because the problems EMD had, were for the most part, foisted on them by GM. GETS may well have a not-so-bright future in the locomotive business, even if right now their order book is full.

[quote="UPRR engineer"]I dont know how many of you that have spoken up here work in train service for a class 1 but as far as the UP goes they still love what EMD is selling. Things have just changed a bit here in the last couple months to a year....etc.

UPRR-Well said from someone who knows, however, I think tou're wasting your words trying to make sense out of what some of these guys are saying. ( like realityrail). He sounds like a NERD who either has never worked for a living or work for GE during the day and sleep with his cuddly U-boat or -8 blow up dolls at night.


The other one Mr realtyrail is another beauty-"GE took in trade-in power- EMD didn't. BS. The fool doesn't know heaps of 40's were built and sold by EMD with remanufactured components from GP7's & 9's.

RTFD. I indicated it was one source, albeit one with EMD connections. Obviously, the GE Evolutions are working; the question is, how well?

Feel free to post more details when you have a chance. I think all of us would like to see hard info, or at least as much as can be released.