Restoration of a S2... Would you Guys be uo to it?!

Hey all,
If you havent kept up on my other thread "Bringing LV equipment to Victor Rail Days", the most recent discussion was about one of the few LV S2 diesels still roaming around. So Far, the nearest units are the BSOR units, as in Scottys post:

Originally posted by Scottychaos:
I think LVRR325 was suggesting seeing if the BSOR might donate or sell the unit to the LVRR historical society..

The fact that an engine is not currently operating is irrelevant..
probably 90% of locos that get donated or sold to museums do not arrive at the museum under their own power..

it would need the right bearings and brakes to move by rail, but a non-operating prime mover is basically a non-issue..

and yes, Buffalo Southern has two LV units:

LV 151 - BSOR 107 is the one with the cracked block.
LV 165 - BSOR 105 is currently operating.

Scot

LV 151, and 165, both still working, err, well, one is, atleast
But that gave me an idea. Since other locomotive preservation is out of the venue, i say we try to get that remaining S2 and ethier put it on display(with matching caboose!) in shortsville, or we take both a step farther, and slap a new 251 under the 151s hood and make her rumble once more!
But, my question is, who out of all the Lehigh Fans, would want to do such a project?
I had an idea in mind by creating a fundraiser for it, titled the "friends of 151: Former LV S2" and base the operation out of the LVRRHS museum. Of course, this all boils down to money.
Money, Money, Money. Gah, why do i even say this?
i understand very well that things are on the rise from our messed up government, and some costs might not be too bearable, but who knows.

Just respond back with your opinion, and at the next meeting with the LVRRHS, i'll bring the idea up.
Cheers.
Sean

Sean. You're wasting your time. Did you know there's a group in Sayre, PA, trying to raise money to bring an LV engine there for display, too? All they need is a measly $5,000. They've managed to raise about $2,000 and not much more since 2005 (Please forgive me if I am shortchanging the exact figures, I'm just going by what's on the web site). They already have an LV caboose on site, too.

http://www.sayrehistoricalsociety.org/l ... scue.shtml

Hey, we have LV 211 at our museum. We're looking to raise funds - a pitiful $3,600 to buy new batteries to keep the ol' girl fit and running. We've had a little better success, managing to raise about $2,100 in just about eight months. But we're still not there yet:

http://rgvrrm.org/locofund/index.htm

I don't know if I'm overlooking any other LV preservation fundraisers right now, but those are two projects I know that are in need of funds. And you want to start a third project? Before you propose anything at any meeting, Sean, I suggest you come to that meeting prepared with a fully-explored proposal. Simply standing up and saying, "Gee, wouldn't it be great to bring a loco and a caboose here?" is not enough. Why don't you start the project by doing some of the initial research and work? Find out if that BSOR unit is even up for sale. Then determine how much it would cost to purchase. Then the cost to transport to Shortsville. Then the costs for professional prep and paintwork. Forget about "making her rumble again," where are you going to put these display trains of yours? And who will maintain the "display?" Where will those funds come from? What are your possible sources of income? Don't say "fundraisers," be specific. I'm overlooking a lot of points, but if you read any of the posts in the earlier "brings stuff to Shortsville" thread, we covered a lot of that. In detail.

Listen, I don't want to tear down your ideas, but I'm afraid you're letting your enthusiasm get in the way of some really good intentions. But take a good hard look before you start proposing things like this.

Now everyone can yell at me for being too hard on Sean.

-otto-

Yes, i had much of that in mind when i was thinking this Otto. I know about the GE U-boat, but in my opinion, LV or not, i dont like GEs.
for the 211, i'd love to donate the needed money for the batteries, but i am short on money myself. I need to get back to scrapping.
Thanks for the opinion, and dont yell at otto guys, hes just pointing out a few simple things
As for the S2 itself, im going to see about that with a few Emails.
Hopefully i'll shed some light on this.
Cheers.
Sean

Just a quick correction, the 151 would need a 539, not a 251. While the 251 is still made the 539 is not.

Lehighton "man" is obviously an over enthuisiastic "youth", with grandiose ideas, but perhaps not a realistic grasp on the FACTS that Otto mentioned. The two projects mentioned above, and the amount of fans "rushing to their aid' shows how much folks care about certain projects. Take into consideration, the historical societies that own, and attempt to preserve/maintain LV equipment, and the amount of eager volunteers supplying time and/or money there, and it's easy to see the writing on the wall. You couldn't raise the money to move that loco, never mind to buy it, repair it or maintain it. Spend some of your allowance on the LV Sayre project, or give it to the LV 211 guys. At least those guys have something tangible in their sights, and a lot better grasp on reality......

First step is call Kevin O'Gorman on the phone and ask him...or talk to Pat Connors, as he's the master mechanic on BSOR. Get answers, then move on from there. If anyone will actually help, it is Connors, O'Gorman, and Feasley. They are swimming in Alco hulks and are familiar with them. They are a good group of guys.

Unless you have a place to run it, forget about running it. Why go through the expense? If you can get a 1/4 mile or so, fine, but you're wasting your time restoring a locomotive, only to have it sit and rot from the inside.

As for the 211, it's too bad that no one was interested in leasing her last year like I had begged for - or even discussing it....she'd be in service today on her former home rails with all new batteries, at no cost to them.

As for the work, show some progress or any hint of financial potential that she will actually make it, that it will be protected afterwards and not end up like a certain local railroad collection scrapyard, and I will make time out of the diesel shop for the project, and scrape, paint, do airbrakes, whatever.

A nice LV for display is worth saving, but take your time and plan it right...and do you know why?

...because you'll end up shoving it behind some AG plant or down some railroad line in a town that will quickly get sick of looking at your junk. When trying to switch the plant, the Class-One will shove it off the end of the track and break the framework, or the kids will get to the windows, set it on fire, or sacrifice cats in Satanic rituals in the cab. Like a moron, you'll end up suing the class-one for damages, and adding to the railfan communities' Black Eye, and ending up with the unit scrapped anyways....

...or when you're not around, some idiot will come knock the handbrake off, and the piece will roll down the line and over a derail, fouling the Class-Ones' main track....that'll cost ya...

...if you become real impotent, you'll end up with a whole string of engines or cabooses up and down the rail line, with no hope of fixing any of them. You will become mired in red tape, volunteers who are all mouth and no action, armchair restorationists who can do it better but won't fork over a dime or show up on work parties....and you'll get frustrated....

...eventually, and because it's easier, you'll buy or have a whole piece donated, say a DL&W caboose, only to have it left to the weather, its' windows smashed and carbody scored with vandalism....

...you'll begin to see spots....this dream restoration will hover over you day and night like a Cornell-Red case of VD, and you'll wish you had never started it, but there it is, an anchor wrapped around your neck....and you'll finally end up being alone, with three dollars in your pocket...


Funds are not out there because - in part - people are tired of trying to DO something, only to have their efforts spit on and thrown back in their face. They also don't contribute because there is no management of alot of projects. There's always too many chiefs and never enough indians.

Sad and wrong as it may be, the Lehigh is DEAD. You can't save it all, but I'm beginning to think that if people don't realize what they have and won't contibute to it's preservation, they don't deserve to have it at all. Don't worry about it, brother.

If you're not prepared for this stuff....if you don't have at least $25,000 to start with, just scrap it. I mean it. Cut that sucker in half in your mind right now. Save yourself the heartache.

If you're going to get close to having something you can be proud of, the Rochester Boys in Industry are your closest bet. Take your lead from them. They are a unit that is actually doing something.

Let us know when the patient has a heartbeat, and I'd be happy to contribute and help in restoration when I get out of the straight jacket....

I try to be patient with Sean because he's young but it's starting to wear thin. If somebody has never had any hands on experience with maintaining or restoring something full size, they have no idea the size of the project. The Rochester group has offered repeatedly to let him help with 211 but that has not happened yet.

Sean, how about a deal? I'll refrain from being grumpy, Otto will back off, we'll all make nice - IF - you don't make any more posts about restoration projects until you have put in three full visits to the museum to work on 211 or whatever project they have for you. I guarantee that even that small amount of time will give you some eye-openers about reality. And since you are unable to get transportation or parental permission to work on 211, how would the 151 be any different?

You said it brother. You must werk for da wailwoad.

Those turbos, injectors, bellows, and equalizer bolts don't just "come off"...you gotta work at them, and that work takes time. Oh, and I was just told....ALCO is no longer making anything, including, uh, parts. So, maybe the 165 has it...maybe it doesn't. That's a hurdle, huh?

Sean, if you'd like to get an idea about this type of project, look into what happened with the Medina Railroad Mueums' E8's....

...all the fanfare! ...all the excitement! ...and those fat bottomed girls have been sitting now for a year. Oh, they were fired up, but what happened after that? THESE ENGINES AT LEAST RUN, THEY HAVE A LINE TO RUN ON, AND PASSENGER REVENUE TO DRAW FROM, AND STILL THEY SIT! Why? Because they were painted NYC, and were purchased with an emotional impulse, not planning and project management with foresight. By that, I mean where are they going to work on them? what is the brake changeout schedule and how much does that cost? what leaks? what knocks? what shimmies? how are the wheels? uh, oops, the radiator....

A few of us said it last spring when they showed up, and sadly we were right...... where are all the peeps who were taking pictures last spring? The fanfare is over, and they are left with two huge piles of "history" staring blindly at them from underneath a factory loading area. And when offers to help are refused or ignored, what do you expect?

And because they are NOT operational by now, don't think that the government who gave them the money to buy them hasn't noticed. How will that affect the rest of our chances to get money for what you want or anyone elses historical preservation efforts?

PPPPPPP. Get started on paper, and go to Industry and get your hands dirty a bit first. Good idea.

There is another factor which creeps into the equation. You don't just walk up to a locomotive and start fixing it. You need to know what you are looking at, what needs work, how to do it, all sorts of things. Who often best knows those things? Guys (and women) who actually work on them for a living.

Today's railroaders include countless employees who may be railfans at heart - often that's why they work for a railroad. But after putting in 8, 10, 12 hours a day, 5, 6, or 7 days a week, the last thing most want to do is go out to the local museum and do more of the same, for free. Once in a while maybe, and there is the occasional glutton for punishment, but many of us get all the railroad we want on the job, and - gasp - blasphemy - actually enjoy getting away from it for a few hours once in a while. This naturally cuts down on the talent available to repair the museum pieces.

By the way, in NO WAY am I saying the only people who know anything are railroad employees. I know quite a few knowledgeable, talented guys who are doing wonders with preservation and restoration, who have never worked a single day on a railroad payroll. But if you trace the skills any of us have back through where we learned them from, and where our mentors learned them from, at some point it will be from those who did some of this for a living.

So before we go talking about just "dropping a new engine in" as if it was a lawnmower, remember that it takes many people with varied knowledge and skills to tackle anything like that. And assembling, organizing and motivating them all is a large part of the task.

Hmm, sounds like we can count you in on this project, huh? Three people talking about this....sounds like a quorum! a mandate! a "high-Irish" for the whole idea!

That's three volunteers....see Sean, it's working already! 20 more and your might get something done.

OK, so Doc O'Gorman donates the SB105 for a buck to this new group we have just formed....David Monteverde will probably be agreeable to having it in Depew, so we'd have a place to work on it.....we can store it in Baer Supply where no one will bother it....and we can run it on the DLWR when she's done, so all we have to do now is get NS to allow the move...

...Hey! Sean! You with us? Help us out here, bud!

20 more and you might get something done once...I dont think I have EVER seen 20 people at a work session let alone together at the museum im with..10 is pushing..5 if your lucky..

Well, I have to say that I think it really kinda sucks that you guys are douching on Sean's "idea", but I do know the realities of restoration, so I can't, and wont argue the fact that maybe his dreams are far outreaching his ability. MAYBE.

Sean, DO NOT be discouraged by the words of WYNP431, BR&P, and Otto, but do try to distill the facts from the sarcasm that has been put forth....It isn't easy, and it isn't cheap to try to do something like what you propose. But if it wasn't for people like yourself, NOTHING would get saved. However, you do need to "pick your battles", or in this case, museum pieces, and choose wisely.

Now it's your guys turn to tell me to stop picking on you for defending a kid with big dreams. We were kids once too, right? And most of us, I'm guessing here, didn't have a computer to voice ourselves with like Sean does.

CF

P.S. - Sean, please PM me when you have a moment.

I'm not trying to discourage the guy. In fact, it's quite the opposite....I am hoping that something does come of it. He just needs to organize and cover his bases....because sarcasm or no, I have personally experienced much of that just in the last five years. I don't want to see another kid dive into situations created by people who foam at the mouth more than think of what they are doing. If I can get a point across with a little sarcasm, great, but my intent is to keep this kid from waking up five or six years from now wondering why he wasted his time - time that he'll never get back.

No one would believe me unless they experienced this for themselves.

As far as the last post, getting a BSOR engine over to the DL&W in Lancaster is as good a shot as any, and I am serious. If the purpose is to save the engine, then location isn't important, as long as you have a facility and storage. BSOR may even let a group use their shops, which are supposed to be very nice.

O.K.....have Sean blow out a half dozen main generators and change out the brushes in a couple dozen traction motors. If, after that experience, he still has his youthful enthusiasm for restoration of D-E locos, then by all means let him at SB 105.

Written by a former Electrician Apprentice, BN Diesel Repair Shops, Alliance, NE, Winter, 1978-1979.

Ok, im beat. I guess i can offer nothing more.
What you guys say is all true, i have never changed traction-motor brushes, nor have i actually done much real locomotive Maitence, it was just my enthusiasm putting forth before my mind could actually tell me it would be a failure.
But CAR_FLOATER is right. Even though the LV May be dead and Gone, if we do nothing to preserve something, there might not even be something there in the future! Yes, we have these tiny tid-bits, ie: switchstands, cross bucks a Tie date Nail, maybe a Train-Man's uniform, but whoopdie-doo. Most people who come to the museum just peer at the things then leave. They want to see a real running historical Locomotive that does something. How do you think you guys at Industry got all that business? Because you have something to show, and run.
I guess my opinion cant count as far as this.
As for my first few trips to Industry, i'll make a plan with my parents for this Weekend, if you guys are around. And, i'll see to it that none of their plans over-ride mine. I'll contribute as much as i can to 211. Atleast its something Lehigh...
I only say the things i do for restoration because i believe that in the pile of Ashes that conrail was given to re-kindle into a fire, there is one ember from the lehigh, still glowing. It carries a message. It says, Preserve Me. I may be dead, but do what you can to make my spirit live on.
Thats all i hvae to say for now.
Sean