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  • Reading PA Passenger Service

  • Discussion Related to the Reading Company 1833-1976 and it's predecessors Philadelphia and Reading Rail Road and then the Philadelphia and Reading Railway.
Discussion Related to the Reading Company 1833-1976 and it's predecessors Philadelphia and Reading Rail Road and then the Philadelphia and Reading Railway.

Moderator: Franklin Gowen

 #804861  by John Johnstone
 
I cannot understand why - if PA pays billions to widen highways, it seems pathetic that service has not been restored from Phila. to Reading, given the amount of car traffic congestion between those points. Could there not be a joint venture between NS and SEPTA, since the Reading was able to run freight and many passevger trains along the Main Line? My idea of a simple solution; All diesel - like the NJT run to AC. Run from 30th St. to the PRR Belmont Branch and onto Reading's Main Line. Make Bridgeport the 1st stop to serve Norristown customers and continue as usual to Franklin St., restoring the handful of parking lots and stations. Any thoughts or updates on this? How many more wasteful "feasability studies" do we need?
 #804979  by Franklin Gowen
 
John Johnstone wrote:I cannot understand why - if PA pays billions to widen highways, it seems pathetic that service has not been restored from Phila. to Reading, given the amount of car traffic congestion between those points.
1) If SEPTA cannot be bothered to create a realistic & useful service proposal,
2) If present "landlord" Norfolk Southern doesn't have their requirements met,
3) If there's no political will to fund all of the above,
...then no service. Surely that's simple to understand.
Could there not be a joint venture between NS and SEPTA,
Such a joint venture could exist if both parties actually want to work together. So far that hasn't been proven.
since the Reading was able to run freight and many passevger trains along the Main Line?
45+ years ago there was a LOT more triple- and quadruple-tracked sections of the Main Line. Today, it's nearly all double-track at best. That has to change before NS will agree to anything. That level of disinvestment in the infrastructure is likely the biggest obstacle to resuming passenger service to Reading.
My idea of a simple solution; All diesel - like the NJT run to AC. Run from 30th St. to the PRR Belmont Branch and onto Reading's Main Line. Make Bridgeport the 1st stop to serve Norristown customers and continue as usual to Franklin St., restoring the handful of parking lots and stations.
Interesting notion you've proposed. I admit I'm troubled by the lack of a direct R6 connection at DeKalb St. Station, though.

How many bottlenecks exist on the first few miles of this route? That connection in the Zoo vicinity from Amtrak to NS is, IIRC, single track. Can it even be reached without fouling other moves thru ZOO from New York and Washington? There may be other congestion closer to Belmont as well. And can this gateway be reached from both the lower level and the upper level of 30th Street Station? Amtrak is not going to easily give up one of its lower level tracks during rush hour. Depending upon what kind of locomotives and cars you propose using, they may not clear the catenary wire under the platform canopies on the upper level.

It's worth exploring, though!
Any thoughts or updates on this? How many more wasteful "feasability studies" do we need?
Until someone actually creates and then publicizes a workable plan, we don't need any feasibility studies. Once such a plan exists, then it can be examined by other parties to assess its congruence with existing operating realities and the necessity of paying for the whole thing. I'm very glad that DVARP put SEPTA's Schuylkill Valley Metro plan under a microscope. As taxpayers, we all should be.

I, too, would very much like Reading--Philadelphia passenger trains to return. It's been nearly 30 years since we lost them. But I don't want them "at any cost". The operating plan has to make sense before anyone is going to provide a nickel of funding -- minimizing interference with the line owner's freight trains, moving the most people for the lowest price, fast enough to compete with cars on Route 422, with enough service frequency to attract riders, and not cost half a billion dollars or more. That's asking a lot. I hope someone can find the best solution, if indeed a solution exists.
 #805084  by rdgrailfan
 
SEPTA has no interest in expanding service beyond it's present service map.

They have not accepted any expansion proposal in 30 years except the airport, everything else is what it is. They seem to be creating a closed system slowly but surely......Hmmmmm.

Harrisburg people are more than aware of this but the lack of public demand keeps the status quo, send a letter to your state reps demanding better service.
 #805503  by delvyrails
 
Mr. Gowen ably lays out the impediments to restoration of Reading-Philadelphia train service.

One idea for a part of the complex solution has been suggested but has not been officially considered. I haven't explored it on site, but I'll put it on the table anyway. It would not be cheap. A look at a Google Map would help in understanding it.

That is a new connection in the West Manayunk section of Lower Merion Township leading eastward from the NS former Reading Main Line and going upward to reach the derelict SEPTA Manayunk Line. The connection to SEPTA property would be at the south end of the old PRR concrete-arch viaduct over the Schuylkill, but this route would not involve use of that structure. This ramp up from the old Reading line would have to be about a half-mile long and include a new viaduct crossing Belmont Avenue just south of its Schuylkill Expressway interchange.

This route, which of course is in SEPTA service south of Cynwyd station, would provide a more passenger-train-friendly entrance to 30th Street Station than via West Falls and Belmont.
 #805880  by John Johnstone
 
I understand what you mean, but that connection was already there. There was a steep grade from the main line of the Reading near the bottom of Belmont Ave., just west of the Venice Branch by the expressway entrance and it made a sharp turn, crossing over itself (Reading Main Line) and joined with a section of track which came off the Schuykill Branch of the PRR, just Southeast of the Spanish Arched bridge, near Barmouth. All that ROW is still there except for the bridge over the Main Line, but the interchange involved three switches...I still think the Belmont Branch would be better, since it is relatively short and already well maintained. I think connecting the two would cost a pretty penny if done in West Manayunk (Belmont Hills).
 #815048  by Rick Abramson
 
This thread brings back memories of riding the RDG RDCs from RDG Terminal to Franklin St. in Reading in the late 60s and early 70s.
These state agencies sure come up with some "unique" reasons as to why they can't restart service that had already existed . We go thru the same thing here in CT.
 #815168  by Franklin Gowen
 
Rick Abramson wrote: These state agencies sure come up with some "unique" reasons as to why they can't restart service that had already existed .
SEPTA has a long record of not being especially motivated or creative with regard to retaking "conquered land". Next month will mark the 29th year of no service. Tragic and sad, indeed.
 #818300  by ExCon90
 
Apart from the single-track bottleneck between ZOO and BELMONT, the physical connection between 30th St. Lower Level and the Belmont Branch was removed over 20 years ago, leaving what amounted to an isolated through route from the High Line to the old Belmont Branch (I'm sure it's called something else now). When Conrail used to run Office Car Specials they would load invited guests on the LL at 30th St., then back to PHIL and reverse onto the High Line to head towards Reading (providing passengers with a nice view en route of 30th St. UL from above). One more thing to address.
 #818386  by ex Budd man
 
Septa is, was, and always will be a transit agency, dedicated to rubber tire transportation. The only way to get a true rail system in this state is to go the NJT route. We need a state wide transportation agency that will consider the needs of all Pensylvanians not islolated pockets around metropolitan areas. If we had a true state agency both our senators and all of our congressmen could get a bigger piece of the funding pie for Pennsylvania. As it stands today each agency within the state has to vie for a chunk of the limited funds doled out by DC.
Political apathy will keep things status quo until there is a change of thinking on a state wide basis.
 #819426  by delvyrails
 
Some comments:

1. SEPTA does have the right to run passenger trains on any railroad in the state.

2. Even in small states like New Jersey, there is much complaint that the bureaucracy 50 miles a way in the state capital does not understand and too little visits the complainants' parts of the state. That's why we have a score or so of transit authorities throughout the state.

3. When SEPTA was young, some legislators in counties around it wanted to expand its jurisdiction to include Lehigh, Northampton, Berks, Schuylkill, and possibly Lebanon, Lancaster, and Dauphin Counties. The idea was just as stated by others here, to prevent the demise of the Bethlehem, Pottsville, and Harrisburg lines. In the case of the first two, they were not successful; and of course, Amtak willingly gobbled up the third (thought to be a "cash cow").
 #819492  by JimBoylan
 
delvyrails wrote:Some comments:
1. SEPTA does have the right to run passenger trains on any railroad in the state.
Even if true, their agreement with ConRail still requires payment if the S.E.P.T.A. car miles on ConRail are greater than the ConRail car miles on S.E.P.T.A. owned track in the same month. This may have been revised to account for CSXT and NS after 6/1/99.
 #820042  by StephenJohnson
 
JimBoylan wrote:
delvyrails wrote:Some comments:
1. SEPTA does have the right to run passenger trains on any railroad in the state.
Even if true, their agreement with ConRail still requires payment if the S.E.P.T.A. car miles on ConRail are greater than the ConRail car miles on S.E.P.T.A. owned track in the same month. This may have been revised to account for CSXT and NS after 6/1/99.
Yes, but in my opinion, this is a somewhat moot point. Paying a freight carrier car miles is justified because the freight carrier is fulfilling the brunt of the maintenance needs of the line; instead of SEPTA. Essentially, SEPTA is paying some type of "car miles" no matter what line they are travelling on whether it be to NS or to the SEPTA employees up keeping its own track.

Something also comes to my mind about this interesting service proposal (running on the opposite bank of the Schuylkill). Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that 3 and 4 track sections have been reduced to mostly 2 tracks throughout much of the journey to Reading. If this poses a problem between NS and SEPTA, what about the two one-track sections going though the Black Rock Tunnel and Flat Rock Tunnel? I once lived in Belmont Hills in view of the Flat Rock Tunnel. At least once a week I would witness a less important CSX train sitting, just waiting, for the more important NS train to emerge from the tunnel - a wait time that would exceed one hour on many occasions. Can you imagine being on a commuter train waiting at a tunnel for 30, 45 minutes, or an hour?
 #820097  by ExCon90
 
Going back to point 3 of Franklin Gowen's post of May 7: refresh my memory if I've got this wrong, but wasn't the reason for SEPTA's dropping the service in the first place the unwillingness of Berks County to kick in any money? If the local residents don't want to pay a share of it, I don't see it happening. And yes, that still leaves the need to address dispatching priorities at those tunnels.