"Washboard" 4400 questions

I need to know the height, width and legnth of the New Haven RR's "Washboard" MUs AKA the 4400s. And I need to know if it used the same carbody as the NY Central's ACMUs?

They definitely did not use the same carbody as the ACMU's. The 1100 NYC cars were carbon steel built by STL car (400's) and P-S (1100's), while the 4400 NH cars were stainless-clad and built by P-S. The 400 series was 75 tons weight.

I have a question: Why were the 4400's retired young? I've heard they were neglected by PC, but did M2's replace everything at one time on that line? I would assume rectifier technology on the 4400-series was in infancy and not perfected yet.

I loved those cars, they were the first cars I ever rode. End boarding, trap doors for low level platforms, and 2x2 cushioned seating, a diamond-shaped pantograph, and the smell of creosote in the morning. Didn't a few survive as the wire train?

There's a thread over on the MNRR thread regarding the M-1's, and how their "retirement", or placement in reserve of 30 cars, compares to what happened to the 4400's. Apparently, as those more in the know than me (Noel Weaver and Dutch Railnut, to name a few) know, the 4400's had rust problems, and when retired, were just parked and not maintained.

Tadman wrote: I have a question: Why were the 4400's retired young? I've heard they were neglected by PC, but did M2's replace everything at one time on that line? I would assume rectifier technology on the 4400-series was in infancy and not perfected yet.

Besides a composite steel/stainless construction, which basically ensures a car will rot away fast, they tended to pop rectifiers like a movie star pops pills. The tubes used were water cooled, touchy, and not perfectly suited for rail use. They were a 40's design that might have been made for welding service, originally. The cars also had a lower top speed (remember in the 60's and 70's that EMUs with unrealistically high top speeds were the big fad) than the M-2s. Oh, and they weren't maintained well by any of the prior owners. I've heard they leaked a bit, too.

Supposedly the New Haven was going to convert them to sillicon rectifiers, but the money wasn't there.

There are two units at the Danbury Railway Museum, one being a combo unit. Using a handheld laser measuring device and conventional tape one should be able to get fairly accurate dimensions as well as some interesting details. You may have to ask the museums permission to measure. I am assuming the dimensional request is for modeling purposes.

I have an affinity for the cars as well since I would travel with my parents to NYC in them. I remember the windows being notoriously filthy and occasionally one could view the track work below through rust holes in the base flooring.

Although I've never rode/seen 4400's, they are some of my favorites. I enjoy EMU's, especially in stainless, and I like end-doors with traps as well. Interurban meets heavy electric, if you know what I mean.

Sarge wrote:I loved those cars, they were the first cars I ever rode. End boarding, trap doors for low level platforms, and 2x2 cushioned seating, a diamond-shaped pantograph, and the smell of creosote in the morning. Didn't a few survive as the wire train?

There's a thread over on the MNRR thread regarding the M-1's, and how their "retirement", or placement in reserve of 30 cars, compares to what happened to the 4400's. Apparently, as those more in the know than me (Noel Weaver and Dutch Railnut, to name a few) know, the 4400's had rust problems, and when retired, were just parked and not maintained.

I have disucssed this before but again, a few thoughts.
The 4400's were a decent reliable car that gave very little trouble on the road.
They were also hard riding due to the type of trucks. Their construction with the stainless steel sheeting resulted in a good
number of water leaks and the water leaked into the wrong places to cause deterioration in the car bodies.
They had good seating but it was 3 and 2 and not 2 and 2. Plush mohair was used when built although some were altered in
their later years.
Their operation went downhill in the later NHRR days and especially under Penn Central and they were finally replaced when
the second 100 M-2's came around 1976. Inadequate measures were taken to store them when they were no longer needed
so that when there was a need for more equipment, these cars were no help.
The old green MUTS were better riding and for their age were also better to operate in some ways if we were fairly careful
with their operation. In many ways, I preferred the old green MUTS to the 4400's.
Noel Weaver

The railroaders called them "4400s."

The railfans called them "Washboards."

The commuters called them "Gutbusters." They were indeed hard-riding cars.

And I miss them.

In regard to the NH 4400's the following information and dimensions apply:

89 cars - 4400-4488, 120 passenger coaches
7 cars - 4670-4676, 90 passengers & 10,000 lbs baggage
2 cars - 5110-5111, 66 seat club cars
1 car - 5112, 65 seat club car
1 car - 5113, 67 seat club car

86'-9" over buffers uncoupled
86'-2" over pulling faces
59'-6" truck centers
13'-4-1/2" overhang
10'-5-13/16" over hand rails
10-3-3/16" over eaves
10'-1-5/16" over end posts
13'-0-13/64" over roof (height)
14'-6-3/32" lockdown height of pantograph
14-8" to top of lightening arrestor
8'-0" wheel base
6" X 11" roller bearing journals
4, 100 HP traction motors

As personal fave MU I've always wondered about how and when these cars "went out,"
Carleton's NYC Diesel book has an odd and I believe rare photo of an MTA FL9 heading up a pair of 4400's sandwiched between two ex-4700 series PS cars, the FL-9 pulling ".. 4 crippled M-U cars.." through Irvington on 7/23/82 . The FL and ACMU's are in the MTA silver and blue, but it's a 3/4 view so can't say what the washboards were wearing. I have to think the MU's were running as a de-powered consist to begin with. Obviously the 4400's were originally good for the 3rd rail territiory but by that late date, and mu'd to 4700's? you have to think no way. Anyone know the real story?
Likewise Bob Yanosey's Penn Central Power has a shot of a set of demotered MP-54's running in rush hour Manhattan-New Brunswick service(same consist nicely caught in color on Otto's post of Bob Coolidges work over on the PC board), Yanosey's caption indicates a similiar consist was created from demotored ex-NH MU's for the same service. However I've never seen a shot of that particular train/set nor does Yanosey indicate if they were 4400's or perhaps some 4000 series MUT's, a few of which I belive also made it into PC green as well.
As an aside, I road the 4400's in '64 and thought then (and still think) they were the neatest MU's ever.

atlpete wrote:As personal fave MU I've always wondered about how and when these cars "went out,"
Carleton's NYC Diesel book has an odd and I believe rare photo of an MTA FL9 heading up a pair of 4400's sandwiched between two ex-4700 series PS cars, the FL-9 pulling ".. 4 crippled M-U cars.." through Irvington on 7/23/82 . The FL and ACMU's are in the MTA silver and blue, but it's a 3/4 view so can't say what the washboards were wearing. I have to think the MU's were running as a de-powered consist to begin with. Obviously the 4400's were originally good for the 3rd rail territiory but by that late date, and mu'd to 4700's? you have to think no way. Anyone know the real story?
Likewise Bob Yanosey's Penn Central Power has a shot of a set of demotered MP-54's running in rush hour Manhattan-New Brunswick service(same consist nicely caught in color on Otto's post of Bob Coolidges work over on the PC board), Yanosey's caption indicates a similiar consist was created from demotored ex-NH MU's for the same service. However I've never seen a shot of that particular train/set nor does Yanosey indicate if they were 4400's or perhaps some 4000 series MUT's, a few of which I belive also made it into PC green as well.
As an aside, I road the 4400's in '64 and thought then (and still think) they were the neatest MU's ever.

The 4400's were pretty neat when they were new and everything worked very well.
After the two were brought out of retirement for the New Canaan Branch, the railroad was in really bad shape for MU
equipment for the Harlem and Hudson Lines. At the time they took some 4400's up to Harmon to try to get a few of them
to operate in DC service only. I think they may have been successful with maybe a dozen or so of them, they may have
had two trains of them. They ran them on one round trip on the Hudson out of Harmon in order to keep them fairly close
to the shop. They lasted for a few months in this operation but as soon as it was possible, they got set aside again and
this time for good. When they went into the shop for the restoration the AC equipment was mostly removed from them
and I suppose the less weight overall did not improve the ride quality. I never rode nor operated them in this service
although I operated them for years on the New Haven.
The thing that really did these cars in was the water damage and improper storage when they were removed from service
in the late 70's.
Noel Weaver

I spent a very happy year on the day New Canaan dink operating the 4418 and 4431, the two cars that were brought out of retirement. It was the most enjoyable time of my to date 37 year railroad career. I loved those cars, they were wonderful. The two that were used on the dink had solid state rectifiers which seemed very reliable and trouble free. Shop people told me that it would not have been a huge expense to retrofit the fleet. They had a unique electro-pneumatic brake that allowed you to have infinitely variable brake cylinder control without drawing down the automatic. If they had been taken a little but better care of they would have made wonderful rush hour express trains.

Could somebody provide the wheel diameter on the Washboards?

does anybody have pictures of the interiors of the cars when they were in service, (seat arrangement, bathrooms, interior color scheme, baggage sections, and the cabs/vestibules)?

It would be a great help for a project im working on.

At the time of their final disposition and scrapping (i.e. ca. 1985-1986) 94 of the surviving "Washboards" were painted as shown below. This information was verified through many rail-walks and personal observation:

NH 401 Green, both ends (42 cars)
4402, 07, 10, 11, 16, 22, 29, 30, 32, 33, 35, 36, 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 45, 47, 56, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 66, 68, 69,70, 71, 72, 73, 76, 77, 81, 82, 83, 85, 86, 87

McGinnis Block NH, both ends (25 cars)
4403, 05, 06, 09, 12, 13, 23, 25, 27, 28, 48, 50, 52, 53, 67, 74, 79, 88, 4673, 4674, 4675, 4676, 5111, 5112, 5113

Penn Central PC, both ends (12 cars)
4400, 01, 20, 34, 41, 54, 59, 65, 75, 80, 84, 5110

Silver paint, both ends (5 cars)
4408, 4670, 4672
4418 and 4431 ran as a coupled pair to New Canaan: outboard ends were silver with red NH; coupled ends were plain silver.

Other paint schemes (11 cars)
4671: gray ends
4451: stainless (unpainted)
4446: one end NH; other end plain white
4417: one end PC; other end light green
4449, 4478: both ends light green

I do not have personal knowledge of the final paint schemes for cars 4415, 21, 26, 37 and 38. 4404, 4426 and 4438 had been destroyed, but I was able to determine end paint scheme of 4404 (NH 401 Green) by reviewing an accident report photograph.

As far as I know combines 4671 and 4673 (renumbered MNRR 65372 and 65373 respectively) were the last Washboards employed in useful service as part of the wire train based in Stamford.

Some additional information:

After being taken out of retirement, the 4418 and 4431 ran to New Canaan between December 1980 and the Spring of 1983. By June 1985 they were in Bridgeport waiting to be hauled to the scrappers.

Washboard club car 5113 was also named "New Canaan" (thank you Noel Weaver for correcting me on this on another forum)

Research that I undertook on this fleet shows that the 5110, 5111, 5112 and 5113 were stored at GCT on Oct. 13, 1978, along with 29 other Washboards.

In the early 80’s (’83-’84) the Washboard fleet was stored between Stamford, Croton and New Haven. By 1985 many were moved to Bridgeport’s East Yard, and late in that same year their transfer began to Cedar Hill for scrapping. Scrapping of this fleet was observed through March 1986.

Thankfully two cars escaped the procession to the scrap yard, the 4670 and the 5111, which were donated to the CVRM in May 1985. I believe these are now stored at the Danbury Museum.