"Kishwaukee Mineral Springs RR"

This little logging rr (5m) operated around Big Shanty south of Bradford PA, with a junction to the BRP, in the 1890's. This is the only logging line I know of with a name like that, and wonder if the proprietors hoped to develop a spa in the area. No clues from the modern or Mapquest USGS, and nothing on Google either -which is unusual. I have seen it spelt Kish-Wau-Kee.
Perhaps anybody who knows the area well can comment!

Look for the series of bookes "Lumber Railroads of Pennsylvania". Several were written by Thomas T. Taber III of Milton, PA, others were by other Pennsylvania writers. It is a fascenating history of lumber companies and their railroads as well as some common carriers who prevailed. Some roads were lumber roads, some were for the oil fields.

And a good place to experience what is being discussed is in St. Mary's, PA on the third Sunday of September (missed the third Sunday of August this year, the only two days a year the line/museum is open to the public)


Pennsylvania - Bucksgahuda and Western Railroad
St. Mary's, PA - "The B&W" is the Bucksgahuda and Western Railroad (pronounced Bucks-gah-hue-dah), a two foot gage railroad museum located in St. Marys, Pennsylvania. We preserve and operate industrial railroad equipment as was once commonly used in coal mines, brickyards, etc. The railroad is a member of the Two Foot Gage Owners Association, is affiliated with the Bucktail Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, and is a non-profit corporation.
Info: URL: http://home.alltel.net/bandw/ (Added: 22-Nov-1998)
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Since you brought the subject up, I know you'll like this!

henry6 wrote:Look for the series of bookes "Lumber Railroads of Pennsylvania". Several were written by Thomas T. Taber III of Milton, PA, others were by other Pennsylvania writers. It is a fascenating history of lumber companies and their railroads as well as some common carriers who prevailed. Some roads were lumber roads, some were for the oil fields.

The Pennsylvania logging series is officially titled the Logging Railroad Era of Lumbering in Pennsylvania. The other authors were Benjamin F. G. Kline, Jr. and Walter Casler. The Kline and Taber books have been reprinted and are available from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania bookstore.

http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/store/whistle_stop_shop.html

(Just click on "Enter The Whistle Stop Shop", once in, click again on "Books")

The volume that covers McKean County is titled "Sawmills Among The Derricks". I have the entire set at home (I'm at work, don't ask ) and will see if I can find mention of the railroad in question when I can get to my books.

henry6 wrote:And a good place to experience what is being discussed is in St. Mary's, PA on the third Sunday of September (missed the third Sunday of August this year, the only two days a year the line/museum is open to the public)


Pennsylvania - Bucksgahuda and Western Railroad
St. Mary's, PA - "The B&W" is the Bucksgahuda and Western Railroad (pronounced Bucks-gah-hue-dah), a two foot gage railroad museum located in St. Marys, Pennsylvania. We preserve and operate industrial railroad equipment as was once commonly used in coal mines, brickyards, etc. The railroad is a member of the Two Foot Gage Owners Association, is affiliated with the Bucktail Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, and is a non-profit corporation.
Info: URL: http://home.alltel.net/bandw/

Since you brought the subject up, I know you'll like this!

henry6-I'm a charter member of the PS&N RR Historical Sociery and, just by coincidence, plan to be visiting my father in Warren County, PA that weekend. Will you be at the outing in St. Mary's on the 17th? If so, possibly we could meet up and say hello in person.

I've got the date penciled in...but with a #3 pencil instead of #2 or ink. I want to go and am trying to break away so that I can. Would love to catch you there.

BTW, Art, and others, I got down there a year or two ago for one of the open houses and had a ball...open house indeed: walk where you wanted, take pictures where you wanted, ride when you wanted, learn what you wanted, play where you wanted, pay what you wanted; just do it all safely! The enthusiasm of the group, the diversity of the collection, the layout and the setting are fantastic. I recommend it for any railfan of any pursuasion!

salminkarkku wrote:This little logging rr (5m) operated around Big Shanty south of Bradford PA, with a junction to the BRP, in the 1890's. This is the only logging line I know of with a name like that, and wonder if the proprietors hoped to develop a spa in the area. No clues from the modern or Mapquest USGS, and nothing on Google either -which is unusual. I have seen it spelt Kish-Wau-Kee.
Perhaps anybody who knows the area well can comment!

salminkarkku-As the old line goes-"I've got good news, and I've got bad news...".

The good news is that I dug out my copy of Sawmills Among The Derricks by Thomas T. Taber, III last night and found a writeup on the "Kish-Wau-Kee Mineral Springs Railroad". The bad news is that Mr. Taber is just as puzzled as the rest of us as to why the owner/ operator of this line chose such a name for a short logging line.

From the text:

J. R. DRONEY LUMBER COMPANY

KISH-WAU-KEE MINERAL SPRINGS RAILROAD

Big Shanty

"McKean County has the largest number of railroad lumber operations for which a clear history can not be pieced together. Most, if not all of them, were in the Big Shanty-Mt. Alton area. Mention has been made in chapter 7.2 of Weaver's 1885 railroad. The Kish-Wau-Kee Mineral Springs Railroad is another operation for which too little is known. What an intriguing name for a railroad; what a frustrating one to pin down!

On March 1, 1895 James and William Pierce and Company of Boston and Wilson R. Page of Olean made an agreement with Droney to cut their timber. The estate of William Bingham had sold 2860 acres in warrants 2258, 63 and 67 to the Pierces for $ 45,760. The warrants run north and south and are intersected by the B. R. & P. R. R.

On May 10, 1895 the railroad was incorporated to run from Big Shanty, where John C. French had owned a mill, to Pierce Camp, five miles. Big Shanty was on the Erie Railroad. On the B. R. & P. R. R. it was called Dents. The railroad ran off the B. R. & P. and also probably the Erie. The mill may have been French's former mill or one that Droney built.

In order to cut the tract, the railroad had to be relocated several times. During the first two years it was listed as running from Big Shanty to Seamond, five miles and having one locomotive. The last two years listed an additional three miles from Gerald to Droney and two locomotives. Unfortunately, none of these places can be located today. It is believed that the railroad at one time ran south along the East Branch up almost to Bingham to reach the southern portion of the tract. It may also have gone north and then east up Railroad and Droney Runs. One spur ran off the B. R. & P. at Dents onto the hill.

Droney owned 248 shares of the railroad's stock as did Page and each Pierce. B. M. Grailey owned the other eight. The bark went to Pierce's Olean tannery.

Droney cut the lumber under the name of the J. R. Droney Lumber Company. His contract with the Pierces was somewhat unique for Droney had to pay Pierce and Page $ 6.50 per thousand feet for good hemlock, $ 4.00 for cull hemlock, and $ 10.00 for hardwood that he produced. He was then free to sell it for whatever he could get.

Droney used at least three locomotives. The Bradford Era of December 7, 1896 states that the Droney Lumber Company above Big Shanty had sold their locomotive and sent it to Chipmunk. Chipmunk is located near South Vandalia, New York where the engine was used on the South Vandalia and State Line Railroad. The locomotive was a Shay. The Era on August 17, 1898 states that Droney purchased a Shay formerly used on the Allegheny and Kinzua Railroad.

The mill operated until 1899. The railroad was then torn up and the two locomotives sold to unknown purchasers."

As an aside, I grew up in this area and used to frequently travel in the region. I had never heard of the Kish-Wau-Kee Mineral Springs. A check of a map of the Allegheny National Forest showed nothing either.

There were many short-lived logging railroads in that area. Due to the temporary nature of such lines, I have to wonder if sometimes a grandiose sounding name was chosen in jest. Check this thread in the New York State forum regarding the "Salamanca Air Line Railroad" which turned out to be an eight-mile long logging line:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17300

Salminkarkku-

I've just returned from a two week visit in northwestern Pennsylvania. Among the "goodies" my father gave me was a book titled "The Smithsonian Institution's Study Of Natural Resources Applied To Pennsylvania's Resources". This book is the fourth printing, with a publishing date of August 1924. There are wonderful maps of all kinds of natural resources in Pennsylvania including maps of coal (both anthracite and bituminous), oil, natural gas, various hardwoods and other geologic deposits (iron, sand, stone & clay).

However, the item of interest persuant to this discussion is the mineral springs in PA. There were no mineral springs in Mc Kean County. In fact, the nearest were in Erie and Crawford Counties (on the Ohio order) and one near Canton, PA in Bradford County, three counties east of the area where the Kish-Wau-Kee Mineral Springs Railroad operated.

I asked my father about this line, he'd never heard of it. In fact, we went so far as to drive through the area on our return trip from last Sunday's Shawmut outing. We stopped in a store in the Mt. Alton area at the intersection of routes 219 & 59 and the proprieter there looked at us as if we were crazy when we inquired about any mineral springs in the area.

Thanks for the input, people.

I found an old map showing a stop called "Droney" on the east end of the BRP's horseshoe curve at Dents, and the Mapquest historical USGS map shows the valley on the east as Droney Run. I agree that it seems that one branch of this rr ran up this valley, and the other from Dents, past the sawmill at Big Shanty and up the East Branch valley to its headwaters north of the airport, northwest of Bingham.

The "Mineral Springs" label is weird. Apart from loggers trying to be funny, the only reason I can think of now is if one or more of the springs at the valley heads came out through a localized deposit of coal or iron ore, and so was oily or yellow. The only way to find out would be if a brave person hiked down the slope from Bingham Road and had a look! Or took the "jeep trail" marked on the USGS.