Question: Why no new 4-axle units?

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me.

I can understand why the major rail lines don't want 4-axle units, since 6-axle monsters like the GE ACxx00's and EMD SDxxMACs makes sense in terms of efficiency and economy for long, heavy, fast hauls.

But what about all the regional lines and smaller roads (shorter distances, not-so-long or fast hauls) for which less powerful 4-axle road switchers are a better fit? (Obviously a regional line like the NY Susquehanna Western isn't going to use its SD70s to do local road switcher duty.) What are the reasons EMD or GE are not developing advanced 4-axle road switchers that are more efficient/economical than the existing GP60s or Dash-8 B's?

TIA for the 411!

There probably isn't a market for any new 4 axle power due to the amount of used equipment floating around. You can buy, or lease a perfectly running 30 year old geep cheaper than you could buy a new equalivant.

My thoughts.

TxBritt

Very true, very true.. I guess that also answers the other question I had at the back of my mind-- Why are all those engines with the nondescript leasing liveries cropping up of late.

I guess sooner or later as all the leftover equipment wears out/becomes more expensive to maintain, somebody will have to come up with more technologically up-to-date 4-axle power some day.. Probably later rather than sooner. Oh well.

Also, don't forget that the giant 6-axle units are used in local service where they are allowed on the rails. A friend of mine has had Dash 9s in local service on NS several times.

Wow, six-axle Dash-9's pulling switcher duty? That must be a sight to see.. Here on Long Island I'm so used to seeing LIRR MP15s shunting cars (and even doing road hauls).

I wonder if the more advanced Dash-9s with their electronics are more fuel-efficient/cheaper to maintain than 30-year-old EMD MP15s even for doing switching duty..?

For structural reasons - roadbed, rail, bridges, etc. - most railroads limit axle loading to about 30-35 tons or up to 140 tons for a four axle loco and 210 tons for six axles.

Basic Coulomb friction theory and observation shows that the coefficient of friction between a steel wheel and steel rail is about 0.3 for good conditions - dry, straight, and level rail - but real conditions are often worse.

That means that a four axle 140 ton loco can deliver about 84,000 pounds of tractive effort and a six axle 210 tonner can deliver 126000 pounds before wheel slip begins under good conditons.

If you check the EMD site you'll see that the SD70M-2 can deliver 163,000/113,000 pounds of starting/continuous tractive effort and the SD70ACe is rated at 191,000/157000 pounds, so with 4300 HP they can deliver beyond the basic Coulomb friction limit, but it takes both excellent rail, some sand, and sophisticated traction control systems to deliver these rated tractive efforts.

Bottom line is that a set of four axle 4300 HP locos might not be able to start a heavy train due to their tractive effort limitation, but the same set with six axles each can. Once power exceeds about 3500 HP, a four axle locomotive is not viable for heavy freight trains. They would work okay for light, high speed passenger trains, but such an animal effectively doesn't exist in the USA.

Thats' why the 70-series EMDs will never be available in a four axle "GP" configuration.

Duke

SWCDuke,

My original post at the top of the page agrees with you-- no more 4-axlers for long distance/heavy haul service is understandable. But my question is not really "why not put more horsepower into 4-axle engines"... It's more "why are the makers not coming out with 4-axle local road switchers that are more technologically up-to-date/more fuel efficient/easier to maintain/cheaper to operate?"

By now, the earliest-built GP38-2's are pushing 30 years of age. What I'm wondering is how come EMD or GE aren't coming out with a more up-to-date version of such a beast-- Not high horsepower, but product-improved to better fit the times (efficiency, modern electronics, etc.). TxBritt mentions the market is saturated with old but serviceable equipment which is plausible...

Basically, my query grew out of the railfanning I was doing on the Long Island RR and New York & Atlantic RR's freight action (and some on the NYS&W too). I see them using nothing newer than secondhand GP38-2's (and just GP38 on the NYS&W) for that, and wonder what are they going to resort to using for local switcher duty say 10 years from now.

Has EMD come out with anything totally new in the midsize local road switcher arena recently?

I'm not sure how out of date this link is but it is from EMDs website: http://www.gmemd.com/en/locomotive/swit ... /index.htm I doubt that they actually sell very many GP20Ds for the reasons listed previously, but I think they still offer them. In some states, Texas and California for example, low emissions initiatives can make buying Green Goats (and the like) cheap or even free. http://www.railpower.com/first_us-built_greengoat.html Its hard to compete with that too.

Tom-

It's a matter of who can afford a new loco. There are now only little more than a handful of Class 1 railroads that can afford the $1-2 million price tag for a new loco that will be in continuous service for heavy haul or high speed operations. The regionals/short lines are much better off buying used locos, and that's about all they can afford anyway because they are typically undercaptalized.

Will EMD ever built a new passenger loco? The F59s are beginning to age and at some point Amtrak (if they survive) will need to buy some new power. They will likely develop a spec that will require a virtually new design or major updates to current designs, and the commuter lines will likely follow on Amtraks coattails. Given EMDs recent experience with passenger locos I doubt if they would bother to bid.

The guys who bought EMD are smart and savvy businessmen. They have a strategy to make EMD profitable, and they can either keep the profits or sell a profitable EMD for a big premium over what they paid and book a big captital gain. Over the next several years their business stategy may turn out to be more interesting than technical developments.

One strategy they might pursue is what I call the "Walmart strategy." Give their recent deal to build 300 locos for China in China, might they start building North American spec locomotives in China and import them to the USA? I don't think their customers will care if they can provide equal value to GE at a significantly reduced price, and with Chinese labor costing only a tenth of North American labor, GM could significantly undercut GE prices and still make a good profit.

There is not enough volume in short lines or passenger service to justify design and tooling for what would be small batches of near custom designs. The most profitable market is selling standard design high tech locos to the Class 1s, but EMD must reduce costs and gain market share to meet profit goals.

This will take "out of the box" thinking, and the "Walmart strategy" that I outlined above is just one possibility. Increasing oversees market share is another, regardless of where the locos are manufactured.

If I were part of GE management I would be very nervous because I know that EMD is going to develop a very aggressive strategy to reduce costs and increase market share, and GE will have to keep up or they will loose a lot of business and become a money losing operation.

If RR's want rebuilt 4 Axle Units NRE does do them and uses older GP's and rebuilds them.

Tom,

You made me shudder at your comment that the 38s are "pushing 30." I just turned 29 for the rest of my life, so I had to grimace a little.

Still, a 30-something year-old unit in the railroad business isn't that bad. With the TLC some shortlines give their equipment and an occasional rebuild here and there, they may crank out another 30 years. Look at the first generation power that's still out there. Heck, BNSF still rosters a handful of GP/SD-7/9s. Just remember, a piece of machinery is only as good as it's been maintained.

Case in point, my uncle's Model-B John Deere can attest to that. It worked hard on the farm every day since it was bought new in 1953. My cousins had it rebuilt/restored this year as his 75th birthday present and it's gone back to work on the farm and as a demonstration piece at local ag events, like "threshing bees."

Granted, I'm probably comparing apples to comquats, but many shortlines have second and third generation (I believe the GP-50 and 60s are "3rd Generation) 4-axle units that they bought (ab)used from the class ones that they've rehabilitated and are apparently happy with. As long as they're taken care of and a ready supply of parts are available to keep 'em running, I think it will be a LONG time before the call goes out for new 4-axle power.

Unless, emissions standards get MUCH tougher than what they already are, then I could see something like the "Green Goat" being produced en masse.

Anyway, that's my .02 for ya.

Komachi:

LOL, I can relate! I look back to when I first got interested in scale railroading and purchased my first Athearn GP38-2 back in 1991, and realized just how much time has passed.

Anyway, with all the excess older equipment floating around out there as TxBritt mentioned, yeah I can understand that the second- and third-gen medium-size road switchers will be around for quite a while yet. Forgive me for using an apples-to-kumquats comparison of my own, but I wonder if GM locos are anything like GM cars ( )... With your average GM automobile, problems starts to crop up after 10 years which makes it more expensive to keep the car in good repair than to just junk it and buy a new Toyota. I wonder if this applies to locos as well.

Over on the LIRR board, some of the posters who do work for the LIRR mentions that their MP15s do take a bit of strokin' and tweekin' to keep them operating satisfactorily.. And of course the LIRR's GP38-2s are on the way out (a few went to the NYA to continue freight duty). I love those loud, obnoxious LIRR GP38-2's and MP15s, but I have a feeling something's gotta give soon.

Who knows, maybe what Metman499 mentioned (6-axle Dash-9's doing switching duty) might just come to pass... I'd probably choke on my coffee when I see a photo of the LIRR using 6-axle 3rd-gens to do local switching duty!

-2's are 30 somethings (weren't the -2's introduced in 1972? That would put the oldest at almost 34 now), but the "straight" GP and SD's (38's, 40's, etc) will be 40 this year, adn weren't the demo's built in 65?, that'd make them 41 this year, the handful left.

At NJT were I work and in Loco engineer school - we run GP40PH-2CAT's that many were rebuilt from "straight" GP40's, from the mid to late 60s era (when rebuilt, many got long hoods from SD45's and the GP40FH-2's were rebuilt with cowl hoods from F45's in 1987) and day in and day out, they run back and forth, hundreds of miles a day, 365 days a year.

NJT just had new diesels bulit, PL42AC, by Alstom, but have an EMD powertrain - and with 4 axles. I haven't been in one yet, but ive heard that they really move, but have had some pretty significant teething problems (not surprising, considering the history NJT has with Alstom) These new units are supposed to replace the FH's, as they haven't had a major overhaul since 1987 when (re)built, and are hurtin - along with other units that have major failures that will sideline them.

LongIslandRRTom wrote:why are the makers not coming out with 4-axle local road switchers that are more technologically up-to-date/more fuel efficient/easier to maintain/cheaper to operate?

The basic answer to your question is this: there's no demand for such a product. The Class I roads haven't asked GE or EMD to build it, and the smaller roads can't afford it.

EMD/MPI have had the GP15D and GP20D on the market for several years now. I'm not aware of any regionals or shortlines that have purchased them, and only a couple of Class I's have (and not in significant quantity).

20-30 years from now, things may change. The 38-2s and 40-2s will be truly ancient and it won't make sense to keep rebuilding them. They'll get passed down to the shortlines (or scrapped), and the big roads will have no choice but to buy something new.

LongIslandRRTom wrote:
I wonder if the more advanced Dash-9s with their electronics are more fuel-efficient/cheaper to maintain than 30-year-old EMD MP15s even for doing switching duty..?

Road power is not the greatest for switching, they take longer than yard engines to load. It takes longer to switch with say a Dash 9 than a pair of SW1200's, my last few shifts have been switching at Lynn Creek with road power, my last shift we had an SD60 and an SD40-2. We even had to switch LynnTerm, which the normal power that we take down there are SW1200's, GMD-1's or GP9's, due to tight curves, I'm amzed we didn't end up on the ground.