Putnam Division & Branches: Getty Square, Mohansic, Saw Mill

Dear all-

I've read numerous articles online about the Putnam Division and repeatedly asked myself "What are switches?" After reading Otto's article on the History of the Harlem Division I believe the term "switch" refers to diesel locomotives or engines, which pull multiple train-cars behind them.

Am I correct and where does the term "switches" come from? I would have loved to experience what it's like to drive the switcher- when those kids stole it in 1972, but at least I would have been smart-enough to know not to ram the engine into a tree! Slowly, gently, and progressively PUSH the tree out of the way. However, weren't the rails removed above East View by 1972?

Chaz.

P.S. Why did the New York Central always remove the rails and ties after abandoning them? Wouldn't the cost of removing and moving the rails and ties be so expensive as to equal the cost of purchasing new rails?

Dear all-

I discovered these webpages on the Putnam Historical Model Railroad Club. It looks like the webpages haven't been updated in quite a while, but they provide an interesting perspective on the history of the Putnam Division

Since the pages are a bit hard to navigate, I will outline them for you:
1. Model Club Homepage: http://web.archive.org/web/200402060518 ... ld_put.htm
2. Old Put History PART I: http://web.archive.org/web/200410290117 ... t-his1.htm
3. Old Put History PART II: http://web.archive.org/web/200404101128 ... t-his2.htm
4. Old Put History PART III: http://web.archive.org/web/200404101128 ... t-his3.htm

Chaz.

P.S. If you were wondering how I discovered these pages, I found them by going through the WikiPedia's history of creating a webpage on the history the Putnam Division.

I dont understand your question about "switches."

A switcher is usually a small locomotive that works in yards or on short local freight trains.

A switch track or "turnout" is a piece of track that allows you to go from one line to another.

The rails were ripped out for two reasons: the scrap drive for World War II meant that anything that wasn't bolted down was needed for the war effort. Second, property taxes in New York State are much lower if abandoned rails are removed. The tax rate is much higher if the rails are left in place, the state sees no difference in rails if they are active or abandoned.

-otto-

Two questions for the steam fans, I apologize if these were already asked and answered.

1) The F-12 class ten wheelers in use on the Put mainline, did these come from the Ulster & Delaware when NYC purchased that line in 1932? Or were these engines LIKE the ten wheeleres used on the U&D?

2) The 2-4-4T tank engines built by Alco in 1912- were these built specifically for Put Yonkers Branch service, or did these come from the B&A Boston suburban operations and later transferred to New York?

Thanks in advance...

-otto-

Otto -

The F-12's were built for the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad as Class F-2, and later became F-12's when they received superheaters. They were used in many locations on Lines East, including the West Shore and the North Country. When they were assigned to the Put in the 1930's they were given tenders from older C-class 4-4-0's because the original tenders made them too heavy for the Put bridges.

The U&D ten-wheelers became Class F-x on NYC in 1932. They remained at Kingston on the CMB and Wallkill Valley Branch until they were scrapped in 1948-49.

The F-12's and F-x's were quite a bit different. The F-x class had two somewhat different configurations, the U&D 20-class (No's 19-29 excepting 20) and the 30-class, Engine 30 and up. I don't have the exact numbers hand right now, but the F-x were somewhat lighter and had smaller drivers than the F-12's. The U&D superheated one of the 20-class and several of the 30-class and converted them to piston valves but retained the Stephenson valve gear. That was odd.

I have never seen any documentation of an F-12 on the Catskill Mountain Branch or an F-x on the Put. NYC also operated some E- Class 2-6-0's on the CMB (former RW&O engines, I think).

Gordon Davids

Otto-

Guess New York Central ripped-out the Putnam Division's rails because of two definite issues in human life- death (of a division) and taxes (on rails).

There was still a scrap drive post World War II? The Korean War was over before the first rails were removed- post discontinuation of regular service in 1958. Nevertheless, that returns to the problem with state taxes. Yet, if the rails had remained for 48 years, could they handle even light-rail use?

I will continue my thoughts on this hypothetical in a separate reply.

Chaz.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I dont understand your question about "switches."

A switcher is usually a small locomotive that works in yards or on short local freight trains.

A switch track or "turnout" is a piece of track that allows you to go from one line to another.

The rails were ripped out for two reasons: the scrap drive for World War II meant that anything that wasn't bolted down was needed for the war effort. Second, property taxes in New York State are much lower if abandoned rails are removed. The tax rate is much higher if the rails are left in place, the state sees no difference in rails if they are active or abandoned.

-otto-

Rails are removed from an abandoned track simply because they are valuable. Most of the Putnam Division rail was 105 Dudley, meaning that the rails weighed 105 pounds per yard when they were rolled. That is about 180 tons of steel per mile. Right now, No. 1 scrap rail is selling for more than $200 per ton, so the rail as scrap is worth about $36,000 per mile. Even in the 1960's, when the first section of the Put was retired, it was probably worth $8,000 to $10,000 per mile.

Also, at that time (1965), New York Central was building the new Alfred E. Perlman Yard at Selkirk. They were looking all over the system for good 105 DY rail, which was taken up in panels and shipped to Selkirk. I don't know for sure that the Put rail went to Selkirk, but the timing would have been right. That drive for 105 lb relayer rail also directly led to the retirement of the Catskill Mountain Branch west of Bloomville, NY, and the Beech Creek between Mill Hall and Snow Shoe, PA. Good relayer rail is worth much more than scrap.

By the way, No. 1 scrap is suitable for rerolling into smaller sections, like concrete reinforcing bars. If a rail contains any internal flaws, it becomes No. 3 remelter scrap, at a somewhat lower price.

I think I remember that New York State didn't tax abandoned track at the same rate as track in service. All we had to do to get a track off of the tax rolls and the property book was to remove a rail at each end so that it was inaccesible.

The New York Central ran an aggressive program from about 1955 into Penn Central to pick up and sell as much scrap as possible, to convert it into cash. The story goes of a man who boarded a train at Harmon and asked the conductor, "Is this train going to Ashtabula?" The answer: "Mister, this whole railroad is going to Ashtabula!"

Gordon Davids

Gordon-

Thanks for the informative explanation. I think I live near the Selkirk yard (I live in Albany, NY). I never would have imagined railroad rails had been used in concrete. Being only 29 years old, I have no idea the value of $8k to $10k back in the 1960s. Guess labor was less expensive back then.

Your story at the end would be so much funnier if it were only untrue! But if the rails remained for 48 years (from 1958 to 2006), will they have been able to support light rail commuter service? The line was designed for use by freight trains. What about wooden ties? Would they have degraded too much?

Charles

ChiefTroll wrote:Rails are removed from an abandoned track simply because they are valuable. Most of the Putnam Division rail was 105 Dudley, meaning that the rails weighed 105 pounds per yard when they were rolled. That is about 180 tons of steel per mile. Right now, No. 1 scrap rail is selling for more than $200 per ton, so the rail as scrap is worth about $36,000 per mile. Even in the 1960's, when the first section of the Put was retired, it was probably worth $8,000 to $10,000 per mile.

Also, at that time (1965), New York Central was building the new Alfred E. Perlman Yard at Selkirk. They were looking all over the system for good 105 DY rail, which was taken up in panels and shipped to Selkirk. I don't know for sure that the Put rail went to Selkirk, but the timing would have been right. That drive for 105 lb relayer rail also directly led to the retirement of the Catskill Mountain Branch west of Bloomville, NY, and the Beech Creek between Mill Hall and Snow Shoe, PA. Good relayer rail is worth much more than scrap.

By the way, No. 1 scrap is suitable for rerolling into smaller sections, like concrete reinforcing bars. If a rail contains any internal flaws, it becomes No. 3 remelter scrap, at a somewhat lower price.

I think I remember that New York State didn't tax abandoned track at the same rate as track in service. All we had to do to get a track off of the tax rolls and the property book was to remove a rail at each end so that it was inaccesible.

The New York Central ran an aggressive program from about 1955 into Penn Central to pick up and sell as much scrap as possible, to convert it into cash. The story goes of a man who boarded a train at Harmon and asked the conductor, "Is this train going to Ashtabula?" The answer: "Mister, this whole railroad is going to Ashtabula!"

Gordon Davids

But if the rails remained for 48 years (from 1958 to 2006), will they have been able to support light rail commuter service? The line was designed for use by freight trains. What about wooden ties? Would they have degraded too much?

Rail doesn't really deteriorate by just being out there. If it was good when service ended it should be mostly good now. The Put was built to railroad standards of its day, for freight and passenger service. The track that was in place when the Put was abandoned after 1961 was not the same track that was originally built. Ties had been replaced as needed over the years, and the rail was probably replaced several times.

I don't know the exact age of the rail, but most 105 Dudley rail was rolled in the middle 1920's into the 1930's. A lot of that rail is still in service on many parts of the former NYC, and it is still good as long as it has not either worn down from traffic, or started to develop cracks and fissures from fatigue.

However, if the rail was rolled before 1937, as it was, it was not control cooled. Air cooled rail would not be considered suitable for welding and use in a transit system.

The timber ties would have degraded from decay and weathering, and most would probably have to be replaced. A rule of thumb for the life of timber ties in active track is about thirty years, but with good drainage and light traffic they could last longer. Of course, regarding the Put, this is hypothetical, because the track is gone. Even if it remained and the right of way were to be reused for a light rail line, the ties would all be replaced, and the rail would be replaced with continuous welded rail of an appropriate size.

Chief- thank you for explaining the difference between the classes of ten-wheelers, I appreciate it. Here's another challenge for you- in my foggy memory, I thought I remembered hearing that ten wheelers were also used up in St. Thomas, Ontario, on NYC's Canadian operation, and they lasted longer than steam in the US? I thought someone told me that some engines from the Put were transferred to St. Thomas?

The scrap drive I was referring to was during WWII, and I was speaking in reference to the scrapping of the Yonkers Branch in December 1944.

-otto-

Does anyone know why Stella D'Oro stopped shipping by rail - I always remember 2-3 cover hoppers by their plant (easily visible from the Major Deegan) until sometime in the 1990s. This plant isn't up in the 'wilds' of Westchester, its maybe a dozen blocks or less north of the Hudson line...

Sir Ray-

Out of curiousity I found Stella D'Oro's website and sent them this message (their contact webpage doesn't list their 888 number or mailing address):

"Dear Stella D'Oro-

There's been discussion on the Railroad.net bulletin topic posting on the Putnam Division, about when & why Stella D'Oro stopped shipping by the Putnam Division line. Please send an e-mail answering these questions. Thanks,

Charles

P.S. URL to the topic is: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 14&start=0 "

I'll see if they respond.

Charles

Sir Ray wrote:Does anyone know why Stella D'Oro stopped shipping by rail - I always remember 2-3 cover hoppers by their plant (easily visible from the Major Deegan) until sometime in the 1990s. This plant isn't up in the 'wilds' of Westchester, its maybe a dozen blocks or less north of the Hudson line...

Hi Charles et al;

I believe I know the answer. Some years ago, General Dynamics, Pomona, CA division shipped its Phalanx shipboard weapons system to Norfolk, VA via Union Pacific flat cars which came onto the property via dedicated spurs to our loading docks. One fine day I noticed a semi tractor trailer flat car with many wheels and a depressed center loading the system and it was being secured to the flat car trailer. I checked with our shipping manager and he told me that the truck method of shipment was considerably cheaper and so good bye to UP. There also went my yearly free copy of the UP new callendar.

Alan-

I don't know if shipboard weapons systems need refrigeration, but last night I discovered this article and thought I would share it with you all. FYI- The Golub Corp. is located in Schenectady, next to Rotterdam.

www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=16236

Nearly three decades after the last oil crisis and abandonment of multiple freight and commuter rail-lines, does Congress plan to integrate into an "energy bill" the rehabilitation of old railroads? It's an election year!!!!

Charles

P.S. I'm always saddened when I miss-out on those free photo-calendars!

pennsy wrote:Hi Charles et al;

I believe I know the answer. Some years ago, General Dynamics, Pomona, CA division shipped its Phalanx shipboard weapons system to Norfolk, VA via Union Pacific flat cars which came onto the property via dedicated spurs to our loading docks. One fine day I noticed a semi tractor trailer flat car with many wheels and a depressed center loading the system and it was being secured to the flat car trailer. I checked with our shipping manager and he told me that the truck method of shipment was considerably cheaper and so good bye to UP. There also went my yearly free copy of the UP new callendar.

Hi,

Read the article and it sounds like a good deal. At one time two west coast RR's got together for solid trains of Reefers with fresh produce. They finally parted company and that released alot of self powered refrigeration reefers. These days the reefers have built in refrigeration systems which will automatically maintain a temperature inside the reefer.

Refrigerated trucks shouldn't need five days to cross the US. They can do better than that. Of course if you place the refrigerated trailer on a flat car of a train etc. etc. then you have something. Lot to be said for TOFC and COFC.

No, a Phalanx weapon system does not require refrigeration. It is normally mounted shipboard, and in multiples for larger ships. The system is a very sophisticated anti- aircraft and anti- missiles system.