Putnam Division & Branches: Getty Square, Mohansic, Saw Mill

Paul1705 wrote:Does anybody know how much ridership the division had in its final years?

Also, what kind of passenger schedule was operated? Was it mostly a rush hour operation?

At the end in early 1958, there were two trains Monday through Friday
from Brewster to New York in the AM rush and New York to Brewster in
the PM rush. Putnam Division trains originated and terminated at
Sedgwick Avenue Station in the Bronx and passengers for or fromGrand Central Terminal had to change at either High Bridge or University Heights
stations to or from Hudson Division trains.
I think at the end they were carrying around 300 passengers a day
between the two trains.
I rode the last train on the last day.
Noel Weaver

It's amusing to imagine the division getting access to Grand Central with FL9s (had it somehow lasted into the 1960s) and finally with Genesis dual-modes at the present. Probably it would have been necessary to drop at least a third of the stops, however.

The River Line in New Jersey, which is considered a lightly used line, gets about 7,600 daily trips now. I'm not sure how the Pascack Valley line does, but it must be close to 10,000. It's hard to say if the Putnam could have ever had that kind of potential.

Noel-

I printed-out (from Microfilm) the New York Times article on May 30th, 1958 L23, titled "The Wheels of 'Old Put' Click Out a Sad Accompaniment to Riders' 'Auld Lang Syne.'" According to the article, you are correct about the number of passengers. How much was a $400,000 annual deficit worth back in 1958?

The article states that "wakes" were held aboard the last two morning and evening trains. I assume there were no caskets involved. But would a dead person count as a passenger, even if they rode in a horizontal position?

Charles

Noel Weaver wrote: I think at the end they were carrying around 300 passengers a day between the two trains. I rode the last train on the last day. Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:I rode the last train on the last day.

Oh, so it's all YOUR fault, then! It's an honor to hear from somebody who lived through history .... rather than the rest of us who were merely born into it.

I remember when the Erie became the Erie Lackawanna, and I remember meeting my grandfather (bestefar) Reinert Nilsen at the Shohola PA station. I also remember driving up to Shohola and seeing the 1972 Agnes devastation done to railroads in northern New Jersey ... washouts galore, tracks hanging in mid-air. My visual memory of it is clear, but I can't find the location of that railroad on the map along the roads I remember us using to get to Shohola.

But oh, we were talking about the Put. Sorry, can't do that. Too young. Just a kid at age 48.

I had to get up with the "chickens" that morning to drive from Waterbury
to Brewster, picking up a friend along the way. We rode the first train
down as far as Yorktown Heights where we got off to get movies of that
train leaving and the second one arriving. We had almost an hour there.
There was a neat metal sign with enamel finish stating "Commuter tickets
now on sale", ticket agent said to take it and keep it so I did, also got a
set of train orders here somewhere from that trip.
We spent the day in New York but after we arrived at Sedgwick Avenue,
the first train had the engine run around the train and return to Brewster
as an extra to take the guests back to their starting point. I guess they
boarded the train on the way down.
Spent the day around NYC but got back up to Sedgwick Avenue station by
subway quite early to get pictures and movies of the moves there. The
first train departed on time with its five cars and we rode the second and
last train which then backed into the station with the 8259 and again five
cars. Both trains had an extra coach for extra passengers and they both
had their share of them as it was relatively easy to return to New York
from Brewster via the Harlem. The first car had chalk writing on the side
taking notice that this was the last train. Got movies along the way going
to Brewster including a meet with a local freight train at Yorktown Heights
and the track was lined with torpedoes for our departure, lot of people
there that evening. We got the trainmen on that train to cut us a couple
of cash fare receipts on this train then sign and date them, nice
momentos at a very reasonable cost, some of the station to station fares
were very cheap in those days.
I suspect that most of the crew retired with the train. They all had top
seniority but it did not go beyond the Putnam Division at that time, things
have really changed since then.
The Central handed out certificates to the passengers on that train and I
still have mine today.
Noel Weaver

Mr. Weaver-

I loved reading your recall of your final trip(s) on the Old Put. Did you use a hand-cranked or electric motor movie camera, and was the film in black & white or in color? I assume this was what you meant by "got movies." I would love to see some of your memoribilia- attending the next NYCSHS?

I am unsure what you meant by "I had to get up with the 'chickens' that morning to drive from Waterbury to Brewster." I assume you were not referring to corrupt Waterbury politicians (or were they usually Danbury).

However, the term "chickens" made me ask how old / young you are. Obviously you are not a "spring chicken." My father (born 1941) had not even graduated from Roosevelt high school in Yonkers, when commuter service on Old Put ended! Poor Russ- he probably wasn't even born yet

Charles

P.S. What are "a set of train orders?" What do you mean by "lined with torpedoes?"

Noel Weaver wrote:I had to get up with the "chickens" that morning to drive from Waterbury to Brewster, picking up a friend along the way. Got movies along the way going to Brewster including a meet with a local freight train at Yorktown Heights and the track was lined with torpedoes for our departure, lot of people there that evening.

It's a shame that the Put does not exist any more. With overcrowding conditions on both the Harlem and Hudson lines and the congestion on the roads to the various stations on both lines, the Put surely would come in handy today. I've examined various locations on the old Put, ie Yorktown and Elmsford for example. There is more than adequate publicly owned land at both locations which could accomodate large parking facilities that would be needed to make the line attractive to commuters. The other locations where stations used to be located would be in walking distance of most commuters. Except for the portion of the line from Mile Square Road to Tuckahoe Road in Yonkers, the line itself transverses a quite isolated route through woodlands. Ridership would be incredible. People argue that the line is unnecessary because of the Hudson and Harlem lines. Well, they are bursting at the seams, sort of speak with ridership and a third line would reduce that stress in their infrastructure and autos on the roads leading to their stations. But I think I'm preaching to the choir here because the politicians won't pay it no mind. It's amazing when a highway becomes congested, ie the Taconic Parkway, they just widen the road, no EIS, destroying trees and woodlands and not a peep from the enviros but if the railroad were to consider rebuilding the Put, the nuts would come out of the woodwork.

exploreabandonedrr wrote:P.S. What are "a set of train orders?" What do you mean by "lined with torpedoes?"

Train orders were written slips of paper at the time. None of this CTC stuff. Torpedos were like M-80 firecrackers, only with metal wings designed to be wrapped around a rail. Section gangs used them to warn of dangerous conditions, like a bridge out or washout. They were loud enough to be heard over the sound of the engine.

Dear ALL & UpperHarlemLine4ever-

I just posted a new topic on the New York State Railfan forum: Campaign to 'Put' back the 'Old Put!' I did this so we and others can discuss in (what I believe) is a more appropriate forum to discuss these types of issues. Please read my introduction before replying or posting.

www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27836

If people believe it would be better discussed in this or of another topic- forum, please advise.

Charles

UpperHarlemLine4ever wrote:With overcrowding conditions on both the Harlem and Hudson lines and the congestion on the roads to the various stations on both lines, the Put surely would come in handy today. Ridership would be incredible. Well, they are bursting at the seams, sort of speak with ridership and a third line would reduce that stress in their infrastructure and autos on the roads leading to their stations. But I think I'm preaching to the choir here because the politicians won't pay it no mind. It's amazing when a highway becomes congested, ie the Taconic Parkway, they just widen the road, no EIS, destroying trees and woodlands and not a peep from the enviros but if the railroad were to consider rebuilding the Put, the nuts would come out of the woodwork.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Improved clearanced on the West Shore spelled doom for the Put as a through route. I think the West Shore was single tracked by 1961? The Put was closed as a through route in 1962.

There was some silly talk around 1983 or so that the City of Yonkers and the County were going to purchase the remaining Put trackage and run it as a short line, presumably interchanging with Conrail at BN. I think it was all political posturing, and Conrail wanted some outrageous scrap value price for the property. I dont know what customers were left on the line above Stella D'oro, but I guess they thought they might make a go of it.

-otto-

I worked in Yonkers for The Yonkers Urban Renewal on Broadway from 1972 to 1980 and the talk of bringing back the Put was in the papers even back then. There was other active businesses such as a lumber yard in Yonkers and Stauffer Chemical that would use the line again if it had been restored.There was a New bridge just before the line shut down that crosses Nepperhan Avenue. Walter Rich of NYSW was supposed to be a possible operator of line.
Your right about CR however. Conrail wanted to make sure it never returned to service.
Would make a nice senic light rail system now. Could run it as far as Elmsford or a little beyond. Maybe its time for that idea to be put on the table in this era of $3.00 + Gas and traffic congestion.

Charles, glad you are easily convinced that the Putnam Division can be resurrected, but it will never happen. It's a physical impossibility! Why not channel your enthusiasm towards restoration and history projects that will benefit future generations instead of wasting time and energy on this resurrection project? Plenty of history to be discussed and researched. However, the last chapter of the Put as an active passenger rail line was written back in the 1950s.

-otto-

Alcoman-

I read your brief message on my new topic. Please repost your message below onto my new topic, and respond to UpperHarlemLine4ever's posting.

You have much more knowledge with the Old Put's old functions than I do.

Charles

Alcoman wrote:I worked in Yonkers for The Yonkers Urban Renewal on Broadway from 1972 to 1980 and the talk of bringing back the Put was in the papers even back then. There was other active businesses such as a lumber yard in Yonkers and Stauffer Chemical that would use the line again if it had been restored.There was a New bridge just before the line shut down that crosses Nepperhan Avenue. Walter Rich of NYSW was supposed to be a possible operator of line.
Your right about CR however. Conrail wanted to make sure it never returned to service.
Would make a nice senic light rail system now. Could run it as far as Elmsford or a little beyond. Maybe its time for that idea to be put on the table in this era of $3.00 + Gas and traffic congestion.

Otto-

A "physical impossibility," how so? Water running uphill- then I would agree. Rather than restating my points and other's previous posts, or posting a discussion that may not belong on the New York Central forum, I refer to: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ht=#277772

Charles

P.S. Look at my July 4th and July 8th postings of links to online resources on the history of the Putnam Division, and one will see my knowledge of history on the "Old Put." One can also recognize it took a lot of time both for me to search for these resources, and for me to compose these lists.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Charles, glad you are easily convinced that the Putnam Division can be resurrected, but it will never happen. It's a physical impossibility! Why not channel your enthusiasm towards restoration and history projects that will benefit future generations instead of wasting time and energy on this resurrection project? Plenty of history to be discussed and researched. However, the last chapter of the Put as an active passenger rail line was written back in the 1950s.

-otto-

This is not a new topic. The MTA did several ridership studies back in the 80s to determine where there was a need to restore service. While restoring the Put would put a station closer to many riders, it would not create enough new customers to justify the expense. I talked about this with Pter Stangel who used to ride home on my train. Everyone would like to have a station near there home, but for every person that would want a commuter train for transportation needs there are 100 people who will scream NIBY! The Put runs through some pretty affluent areas and I'm sure that it would be a tough push to get people agree to get trains running in their back yards again.

In addition to all the very valid reasons already stated for why the Put would never be restored, there is also a legal matter nobody has mentioned: I do not know all the details of this, nor how it works; but there is some requirement that when a railroad ROW is actually abandoned, as the Put was, whatever future use is designated for that ROW must be legally adjudicated to be its "highest and best use."

That's one reason why "railbanking" has been pursued in certain places as an alternative to abandonment.

Somebody on this forum must be a lawyer who can comment more accurately and thoroughly on this principle.