PTC and Faster Passenger Rail

The knowledgeable pros on this board are welcome to pick apart this argument, but it’s a thought I had.

Passenger trains on most mainline freight railroads have been capped at 79mph due to a lack of cab signal or train stop/control system. With the widespread installation of PTC on mainline freight track, wouldn’t this “check the box” for the cab signal or train stop/control requirement, thus allowing for 79+ passenger speeds?

The other obstacle is track standards. I know most mainline freight track is Class 4, which caps passenger speeds at 80. Nothing you can do there. However, in areas where Class 5 (or better) track exists, would PTC installation allow for passenger rail to get the green light for 90mph MAS? What other hurdles exist?

That being said, where are some locations around the country where Amtrak runs on Class 5 track owned by freight companies? They’re probably few and far between, but I’d be interested to know some locations! I know sections of the BNSF southern transcon are Class 5, which allows the Chief to hit 90 (along with ATS).

HammerJack wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:59 pm The knowledgeable pros on this board are welcome to pick apart this argument, but it’s a thought I had.

Passenger trains on most mainline freight railroads have been capped at 79mph due to a lack of cab signal or train stop/control system. With the widespread installation of PTC on mainline freight track, wouldn’t this “check the box” for the cab signal or train stop/control requirement, thus allowing for 79+ passenger speeds?

The other obstacle is track standards. I know most mainline freight track is Class 4, which caps passenger speeds at 80. Nothing you can do there. However, in areas where Class 5 (or better) track exists, would PTC installation allow for passenger rail to get the green light for 90mph MAS? What other hurdles exist?

That being said, where are some locations around the country where Amtrak runs on Class 5 track owned by freight companies? They’re probably few and far between, but I’d be interested to know some locations! I know sections of the BNSF southern transcon are Class 5, which allows the Chief to hit 90 (along with ATS).

The published FRA rules allow a PTC system to replace ABS (for 59+ mph running) and even ATS/ATC for 79+ mph running) however, I believe the system needs to be certified at those higher speeds.

Are there places where track could be upgraded to Class 5 on government grants that wasn't feasible when it also required cab signalling upgrades. Probably. However, one problem is that host railroads aren't fond of passenger traffic running a lot faster than freight traffic. The signal block lengths sometimes need to be changed to ensure trains can stop in time. I remember reading something about how when VA added service to Norfolk, NS fought them tooth and nail on speed upgrades beyond 79 mph for these reasons.

I-ETMS PTS is an overlay of the wayside signal systems and way more dependant on cell phone towers and sat tracking GPS than ACSES used on the NEC and almost all east coast commuter lines
So to raise the speed will still need to upgrade track structure and install cab signals
BNSF just might start ripping out the ATS system where the PTC is now online

There's a thread on Trainorders that states BNSF will do away with ATS.

Another factor to keep in mind is the increased cost to maintain lines that would be upgraded to class 5 standards where the railroads feel that it is not warranted for their operations. They would probably insist that Amtrak come up with more money to keep these tracks to greater than 79 MPH standards. Indeed, CSX, for example, would love to see the Silver Star re-routed off the S line through the Carolinas as that would allow them to save money by downgrading it.

Alex M wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:41 am Another factor to keep in mind is the increased cost to maintain lines that would be upgraded to class 5 standards where the railroads feel that it is not warranted for their operations. They would probably insist that Amtrak come up with more money to keep these tracks to greater than 79 MPH standards. Indeed, CSX, for example, would love to see the Silver Star re-routed off the S line through the Carolinas as that would allow them to save money by downgrading it.

Good point, I understand that. I guess I’m asking about places where Class 5 track currently exists. I wouldn’t expect freight railroads to upgrade their track solely so Amtrak could run 10mph faster. But in the cases where Class 5 track currently exists, A) does certified PTC give Amtrak the green light to run at 90mph? and B) where are some locations where freight railroad Class 5 track exists that Amtrak runs on?

For reference, when E-L discontinued Lake Cities in early 1970, they were able to reduce the super-elevation of curves for 35 mph running of freights rather than 45 mph for passengers in many locations.

I thought I read that BNSF was discontinuing ATC in many places.

WhartonAndNorthern wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:28 pm I remember reading something about how when VA added service to Norfolk, NS fought them tooth and nail on speed upgrades beyond 79 mph for these reasons.

That's too bad. I think the Petersburg - Norfolk leg has what might be the longest tangent segment in North America!

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:16 am That's too bad. I think the Petersburg - Norfolk leg has what might be the longest tangent segment in North America!

It is pretty straight, around 52 miles using Google Earth tools.
But per http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/71622.aspx
1st longest in the USA is the CSX, former SAL between Wilmington and Hamlet, N.C., 78.86 miles.
2nd longest in the USA is UP, former CRI&P, 71.94 miles, northwest Texas.
3rd is NS, ex NYC 68.49 miles between Toledo and Butler IN.
4th was Monon between Brookston and Westville, IN, 64.52 miles, partly abandoned.
4th, ex 5th is CN, ex IC Edgewood cutoff, 62.96 miles.
5th, ex 6th is CSX, ex ACL, 60.10 miles, between Waycross and Valdosta, GA
6th, ex 7th is CSX, ex SAL, 57.4 miles, west of West Palm Beach, FL.
7th, ex 8th is DME, ex C&NW, 53.85 miles, between Vayland and Blunt, SD.
ex 9th was D&RGW, 52.82 miles, north of Alamosa
8th, ex 10th, is BNSF, ex NP, 51.2 miles, west from Fargo, ND
9th, ex 11th is UP, ex SP, 50.0 miles, between Slater and Tagus, CA

Whereas I will agree the old N&W line between Petersburg and Suffolk should rank around 8th on this list, the list ignores it - maybe it was an oversight?
What was surprising to me was how many of them on this list are located in swamps. Which not only makes them straight, but also flat, flatter than a pancake. :)

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:16 am

WhartonAndNorthern wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:28 pm I remember reading something about how when VA added service to Norfolk, NS fought them tooth and nail on speed upgrades beyond 79 mph for these reasons.

That's too bad. I think the Petersburg - Norfolk leg has what might be the longest tangent segment in North America!

From a Google search:

The longest straight track in the USA is 78.9 miles on CSX between Laurel Hill and East Arcadia, North Carolina. The straight is located on the former Seaboard Air Line route linking Hamlet and Wilmington.

I have read that BNSF will allow 90 MPH max passenger speed on former Santa Fe segments where 90 had been in effect during ATS operation, and may even allow 90 on the adjacent track where ATS was not in effect. It should be interesting to see what happens east of Fort Madison, IA - track is Class 5 but passenger speed limited to 79 because Santa Fe had removed ATS in IL several years ago. It should also be interesting to see whether San Diego Northern and Metrolink, which both run over former Santa Fe tracks with 90 MPH max speeds remove ATS now that PTC is operational.
Andy

Mr. Andy Tower Operator, ATSF disabled their Illinois Division ATS and reduced Passenger MAS from 90 to 79 on A-Day, when it was discovered that the "shoes" for such would not clear into CUS. That caused the "shoes" to be added and removed at Fort Madison. The newer Amtrak locomotives obviated that requirement and that former ATSF line is now only used West of Galesburg.

Unrelated historical note; there used to be two Amtrak passenger train stations in Galesburg: GBB (Galesburg-Burlington) presently used for all trains, and GBS (Galesburg Santa Fe) which has long since been chopped down.

Unrelated historical note; there used to be two Amtrak passenger train stations in Galesburg: GBB (Galesburg-Burlington) presently used for all trains, and GBS (Galesburg Santa Fe) which has long since been chopped down.

and at one time a Rock Island station as well.....not in the Amtrak era!

comment redacted ... I had confused Precision Railroading with PTC. Thanks for correction Railjunkie

PTC or I ETMS in this case has no effect on the schedules of trains. All it does is enforce speeds, keep you from going by an absolute stop signal, getting into a work area without permission ect. It will show your route on a map and you can see speeds, grades curvature, signals ect. It knows where you are within 25ft.

It dosent care if your early or late what it does care about, length, tonnage, engines how many and what your leader, cars how many, and your bulletins. All must be correct before leaving. It will stop your train if it feels you are being unsafe it will download the computer and let just about everyone in the world know you just f'ed up, thus causing you to have a nice unpaid vacation. 30 days minimum.

ACSES, again no influence on schedule it does the same type of speed and stops signal enforcement as I ETMS except there is no map. It dosent care about length or tonnage number of engines cars or bulletins, it puts trains into types and enforces speeds assigned to that train type. A brake curve is assigned to each type. Example light engines going on a stone train set in "E" speeds it will enforce "E" speeds with or without the train. Take those same light engines put them in "B" and magically your speeds go up and your brake curve gets smaller.

The systems are nothing more than safety overlays, is there more they can do I'm sure but for now the Fed says +79mph you need cab signals.