Private equipment collection at Colonie and Glenmont

lvrr325 wrote:Who owns the bridge? The rail line on the other side of the bridge?

The rail line on the other side of the bridge is the Delaware and Hudson's "Cabbage Island Branch" that, south of the Albany Port Railroad, serviced the power plant (note that to get to the branch the D&H had to transverse the the APRR).

As D&H went through a bankruptcy subsequent to its ownership first by Norfolk and Western and then by Guilford (the latter which precipitated the bankruptcy), was operated while in bankruptcy by Delaware Otsego, went into the CP's St. Lawrence & Hudson, and is now merged into CP proper, who do you think owns the bridge?

(only kidding!)

My suspicion is that only the operating assets found their way into St. Lawrence & Hudson (the operating entity after the bankruptcy). D&H mavens, Did I get the chronology right?

Steve

In all honesty I don't think that bridge is in that bad a shape that it can't be temporarily shored up and enough ties replaced to get the equipment out over it. The steel itself is in good shape. Eventually that insulated pipeline on the structure will require the bridge to get some type of upgrade.

Now if the steel was bent, rotted away or laying in the river that would end that idea.

docsteve wrote:

lvrr325 wrote:Who owns the bridge? The rail line on the other side of the bridge?

The rail line on the other side of the bridge is the Delaware and Hudson's "Cabbage Island Branch" that, south of the Albany Port Railroad, serviced the power plant (note that to get to the branch the D&H had to transverse the the APRR).

As D&H went through a bankruptcy subsequent to its ownership first by Norfolk and Western and then by Guilford (the latter which precipitated the bankruptcy), was operated while in bankruptcy by Delaware Otsego, went into the CP's St. Lawrence & Hudson, and is now merged into CP proper, who do you think owns the bridge?

(only kidding!)

My suspicion is that only the operating assets found their way into St. Lawrence & Hudson (the operating entity after the bankruptcy). D&H mavens, Did I get the chronology right?

Steve

No idea. Between the D&H bankruptcy and all the games Guilford played when they did have the D&H, plus the fact that it's apparently been idle for a long time, anybody could own it - CP Rail, APRR, the state, the county, for all I know it was sold at a tax auction or the outfit that wants to build where this equipment is located has title to some or all of the branch. Apparently the pipe that runs along it has been repaired, so someone owns and cares about that - so who? The answer can probably be found in the county tax office.


As for the shape of the bridge, the bridge itself doesn't appear to be that bad, but in the pictures you can see how the wood (!) pilings on one end of the main span are so rotted the bridge sits a foot or more lower on one side than the other. That's not supposed to be superelevated track. It could probably get jacked up and temporarily supported, but I don't know enough about that to know if it could be done well enough to move the trains across.

How much horsepower would you need to move 100 ton engine with frozen wheels(guessing 30 years non use)?

lvrr325 wrote:As for the shape of the bridge, the bridge itself doesn't appear to be that bad, but in the pictures you can see how the wood (!) pilings on one end of the main span are so rotted the bridge sits a foot or more lower on one side than the other. That's not supposed to be superelevated track. It could probably get jacked up and temporarily supported, but I don't know enough about that to know if it could be done well enough to move the trains across.

I looked at it carefully. What has rotted are not the piling, but instead the horizontal members that distributed the weight of the bridge across multiple pilings. Yes, I think it could be jacked up using cribbing, the horizontal members replaced, and the bridge repaired, well enough to bear the weight of a dozen cars/engines. I speculate that people have thought the bridge to be unrepairable, and so that option was never taken seriously. If it were, then the first thing to be done is to get an engineer who understands the weight bearing capacity of pilings to take a look at it and give a time and materials estimate. The next first thing to be done is to get contracts in place with all the owners of everything -- the cars, the engines, the bridge, and the owner of the trackage north of the bridge. Then you find as many people who will volunteer to do whatever needed -- cut brush, install safety ties, etc. Then you locate vendors who will rent cribbing and bottle jacks for cheap, work at cost, etc until you have a bottom line. Then you go to kickstarter, make a video and promote the hell out of it in every railroad venue possible.

And then you either have the money and plan to do it, or you've given your shot and know it can't be done.

The property where the engines and rolling stock are located are on private property owned by Beacon Harbor LLC. This would also include what remains of the Cabbage Island Branch south of Port Road and the property between Normanskill Creek and the power plant. North of where the tracks cross over and run parallel to Port Road are owned by the D&H. I would 'presume' the bridge is owned by Beacon Harbor, LLC as well - but because it's an abandoned bridge over a waterway - really couldn't ascertain that by looking at the tax maps. Who knows what the pipeline on the bridge is used for (or if it's even still in use)... because it's insulated, I would presume high pressure steam from the power plant to the industries on Cabbage Island, or heated bunker oil to the plant from a tank farm to the north?... but that may have been discontinued years ago...?

Here's where I found my info:

http://gismap.albanycounty.com/parcelviewer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The power plant is no longer owned by Niagara Mohawk or National Grid - it's an independent power generator that sells it's power on the open market and is carried off to the 'grid' by National Grid. Trust me - they want NOTHING to do with any of this. So that option is off the table.

To repair that bridge, because it's over a waterway that empties out a watershed area into the Hudson, you're looking at getting permits from the Army Corps of Engineers, and who knows what kind of shape those pilings are in below the waterline. They may look intact from a distance, but you don't know what you're getting yourself into until you've had then inspected underwater. I'm no engineer, but I can tell you that bridge has a zero live load rating in it's current condition. The FRA has shut down bridges in better condition. There is no way you're dragging 125 ton locomotives over that structure. Cost to repair the line and bridge? Even just something minimal for a hospital move you're talking high 6-figure, low-7 figure range when you factor in the pilings in the water for the main span, cranes on barges (assuming the water is deep enough), etc. It's a huge undertaking any way you slice it.

As said, the time to move those engines was over 20 years ago.

But hey - if someone with deep pockets wants to finance all of this - I'm all for it. I'm just not optimistic that it will ever happen.

rottentie wrote:How much horsepower would you need to move 100 ton engine with frozen wheels(guessing 30 years non use)?

It wouldn't take much... you can move a 100 ton locomotive easily with a trackmobile or a loader if the ground is level enough. Frozen wheels are a non-issue. The brake gear may hang up, but I've never seen a bearing set up from sitting. A little PB Blaster, a pry bar, and a couple sledge hammers and you'd be on your way!

Rolling the locomotives a few hundred feet is the easy part. The biggest issues are (1) the bridge, (2) transportation by truck or rail (flatcar), and (3) property access.

Best of luck to the museum!

Joe

nessman wrote:There is no way you're dragging 125 ton locomotives over that structure.

Could the bridge be repaired enough to handle 30-40 ton trucks, hauling out pieces of scrap in containers or dumpsters?
Now, what if the RS3s were scrapped (is anything on or in them salvage for other Museum RRs, like the parts they salvaged from the S1 scrapped at Albany?), the passenger cars scrapped, would that generate any revenue? Enough to perhaps disassemble the electrics into small enough modules to transport them across the bridge, to be reassembled elsewhere? Just a thought, as has been a lot of things in this thread...

nessman wrote:'m no engineer, but I can tell you that bridge has a zero live load rating in it's current condition.

Well, that's can't be true, because it has managed to survive 20+ winters with however many tons of snow and ice on it. Granted, it's not the 100 tons that the locos weigh, but neither is it zero.

I looked at the pipe. It was repaired fairly recently, probably when the bridge shifted. The pipe owners would probably have an opinion about any use of the bridge.

Maybe crane+barge is the way to get everything out, IF you can get a barge up the Normans Kill. I expect that you can, because those pilings got placed *somehow* and you can be sure it wasn't from land. The costs are more certain that way, and there's no need to involve any authorities. The weight of the cars is probably fairly well known, at least upper limits anyway. The crane operator can certainly tell you how much they can lift at what distance from the barge, and then it's just a question of measuring the depth of the creek and the distance from there to the lifting point. The necessary money would be limited to paying for the barge and crane. You could probably find a crazy person who owns a trackmobile to let you use it for free if you cover his costs. Not that I'm thinking of anybody in particular.

I speculate that the property owner will cooperate in allowing them to be removed, if only to eliminate the liability. They would probably ask to be insured, at which point you say "No, you don't understand; we're removing a long-term liability in exchange for a short-term liability. Suck it up."

RussNelson wrote:

nessman wrote:'m no engineer, but I can tell you that bridge has a zero live load rating in it's current condition.

Well, that's can't be true, because it has managed to survive 20+ winters with however many tons of snow and ice on it. Granted, it's not the 100 tons that the locos weigh, but neither is it zero.

Well, let's not forget to factor in accumulated bird poop too!

Maybe crane+barge is the way to get everything out, IF you can get a barge up the Normans Kill. I expect that you can, because those pilings got placed *somehow* and you can be sure it wasn't from land. The costs are more certain that way, and there's no need to involve any authorities. The weight of the cars is probably fairly well known, at least upper limits anyway. The crane operator can certainly tell you how much they can lift at what distance from the barge, and then it's just a question of measuring the depth of the creek and the distance from there to the lifting point. The necessary money would be limited to paying for the barge and crane. You could probably find a crazy person who owns a trackmobile to let you use it for free if you cover his costs. Not that I'm thinking of anybody in particular.

That's probably the only feasible way of doing it and these cranes do exist. Question is, whether the water in the creek deep enough and is there enough room in the creek itself to get something with a >150 ton capacity in there (remember - need a crane long enough to reach onto shore to pull 100-125 ton objects out without capsizing). That and if we're talking about a big crane - any overhead clearance issues getting it up the Hudson? And again - comes down to $$$.

I have to wonder if everyone isn't overthinking this.

For Beacon to ever build in there they're going to need some kind of right of way to get heavy equipment in and out to construct whatever they decide to build. When that happens, that stuff has to get out of the way somehow - a right of way is a right of way, if the stuff comes out intact or in big pieces that can be re-assembled elsewhere, or in small chunks of scrap, I don't think anyone has any say once the ROW is granted. So there might be a narrow window of opportunity to remove if nothing else the electrics.

Then it's just a matter of getting the stuff someplace close for repairs or other loading to go to a final destination. The pieces with roller bearing wheels can probably be patched up enough to go whereever on their own wheels, the rest will have to go via flatcar or truck.

lvrr325 wrote:I have to wonder if everyone isn't overthinking this.

For Beacon to ever build in there they're going to need some kind of right of way to get heavy equipment in and out to construct whatever they decide to build. When that happens, that stuff has to get out of the way somehow - a right of way is a right of way, if the stuff comes out intact or in big pieces that can be re-assembled elsewhere, or in small chunks of scrap, I don't think anyone has any say once the ROW is granted. So there might be a narrow window of opportunity to remove if nothing else the electrics.

Then it's just a matter of getting the stuff someplace close for repairs or other loading to go to a final destination. The pieces with roller bearing wheels can probably be patched up enough to go whereever on their own wheels, the rest will have to go via flatcar or truck.

Yeah - but the proposal by Beacon Harbor LLC is to build a waste-to-energy gasification plant - and these things take years to get off the ground because of all sorts of environmental red tape that's involved. But you're right - this type of development will need significant infrastructure for incoming shipments of garbage - either via truck, rail or barge - and they project planners say they need at least 1,500 tons of garbage a day to make this project feasible. So maybe there's some hope. On the other hand the property owners can say "you got 30 days to move this crap or else" and you're back to a Colonie yard situation. But like I said - we're talking years from now knowing how slow things move in NY when it comes to any project that requires expensive SEQR studies and approvals. Other than a local regulatory hurdle regulating how much trash can be brought into the town each day that was overcome in Dec 2012 - not much else has come of this project. The relatively low cost of natural gas could be a likely culprit for the delay too (why spend all that money to build a trash to gas plant when you can just get the stuff form the ground cheaper - than to try and sell the stuff made from trash at a loss?).

Slightly off topic, but as long as we are talking about historic equipment in Colonie and Glenmont, whatever happened to the yard switcher at the power plant, last seen used when they did the rebuild?

Hell, a lot of garbage comes out of the NYC area by rail, it passes by here constantly. It would make sense to bring it in via rail rather than via truck. There's your excuse for repairing the bridge, or rebuilding some kind of rail connection into the property.

If this waste-to-energy project becomes reality, they plan on using rail to bring municipal solid waste in:

This document provides some detail. Doesn't say if they'd use the CSX siding, or the old D&H Cabbage Island Branch. But if they use the old D&H line from the Port of Albany - you're most likely looking at rail infrastructure upgrades. So there's some hope...

http://bethlehemtownny.iqm2.com/Citizen ... =4&ID=1153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;