Premature abandoments(?)

I've wondered if the old New Haven & Derby route could have survived had it held on and taken advantage of the major suburban boom after the war (as has often been suggested of the NYW&B). I'm imagining direct service from New Haven to Waterbury, with further justification of being an alternative route for freight jobs which ran via Devon (it was 12 or so miles shorter, as well).

The New Haven - Derby route never really had that much traffic. Passenger service was local in nature and the through freight trains ran via Devon because it was much better physical plant, a better route through New Haven, multiple tracks and not nearly as severe grades. Curves, clearances and bridges also were a factor and the heavier locomotives could not use this line either. I doubt if it would have served any useful purpose in recent periods. Waterbury - Hawleyville was also much shorter but again the grades killed that route and that route could support heavier power. In earlier years the New Haven and many other railroads in the northeast had just too many lines that traffic could not support and New Haven - Derby fits this catagory.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:The New Haven - Derby route never really had that much traffic. Passenger service was local in nature and the through freight trains ran via Devon because it was much better physical plant, a better route through New Haven, multiple tracks and not nearly as severe grades. Curves, clearances and bridges also were a factor and the heavier locomotives could not use this line either. I doubt if it would have served any useful purpose in recent periods. Waterbury - Hawleyville was also much shorter but again the grades killed that route and that route could support heavier power. In earlier years the New Haven and many other railroads in the northeast had just too many lines that traffic could not support and New Haven - Derby fits this catagory.
Noel Weaver

Just wanted to expand a bit on what Noel said. The New Haven & Derby was basically built to be a nuisance to the "Consolidated" (the New York, New Haven & Hartford.) Originally it was meant to link up to a Hudson River bridge at Bear Mountain-- which was never built. After that it served as a connection between the city of New Haven and non-NYNH&H rails-- first to the Naugatuck Railroad at Derby Jct., then (after the Naugy was leased by the New Haven in 1887) to the Housatonic via a branch to Botsford. As Noel points out, the line cuts straight across hilly country between the two cities: if you look at the route on the 1892 topo maps at historical.mytopo.com, you can see that in 9-odd miles it climbs from sea level at New Haven over a couple of 200 foot ridges before dropping back down to near sea level at Derby.

Like the Bethel-Hawleyville branch of the Housatonic, this line basically had no purpose anymore once everything it connected to was part of the New Haven.

The Connecticut Company's New Haven-Derby trolley line, which (I believe) followed the alignment of Route 34, would probably have been better suited for suburban use-- but that's a subject for a different board...

moxie13 wrote:One line that was abandoned to early was the MEC's Dover-Foxcroft branch. This line was a casualty of the 1986 strikes. In the last year of operation this branch hauled 2500 car loads. The primary business was to move pulp wood to paper mills. There was some other traffic, I grew up in Dexter, ME, and I can remember delivery to the local Agway. Once, I even saw a Conrail coal hopper on this local. This line was taken out of service far to early, and forced an increase in truck traffic. In this year, the MEC's Dover Foxcroft branch would have been abandoned years ago, it just happened to early.

Fans of the B&M's northern division need to get over it. I live in the Upper Valley, and am familiar with this line. On the map it does look like an important rail line. The historical truth is that it was not, at least in the latter decades. Check old B&M passenger timetables between Conocrd, NH and WRJ. The service was slow. There are many rail line lines that should have not been toned up such as the B&O in southeastern Ohio, or the EL western, but these mistakes cannot be changed.

When looking through this thread I found it interesting to read a serious case being made for the idea that the Dover-Foxcroft branch abandonment was premature. I had always though of it as forlorn and lonely without any serious online business much like the Somerset Branch beyond Skowhegan. I never would have guessed it saw 2500 cars in its final year. That is a very interesting number, not necessarily an economic justification for retention but interesting nonetheless.

gokeefe wrote:

moxie13 wrote:One line that was abandoned to early was the MEC's Dover-Foxcroft branch. This line was a casualty of the 1986 strikes. In the last year of operation this branch hauled 2500 car loads. The primary business was to move pulp wood to paper mills. There was some other traffic, I grew up in Dexter, ME, and I can remember delivery to the local Agway. Once, I even saw a Conrail coal hopper on this local. This line was taken out of service far to early, and forced an increase in truck traffic. In this year, the MEC's Dover Foxcroft branch would have been abandoned years ago, it just happened to early.

Fans of the B&M's northern division need to get over it. I live in the Upper Valley, and am familiar with this line. On the map it does look like an important rail line. The historical truth is that it was not, at least in the latter decades. Check old B&M passenger timetables between Conocrd, NH and WRJ. The service was slow. There are many rail line lines that should have not been toned up such as the B&O in southeastern Ohio, or the EL western, but these mistakes cannot be changed.

When looking through this thread I found it interesting to read a serious case being made for the idea that the Dover-Foxcroft branch abandonment was premature. I had always though of it as forlorn and lonely without any serious online business much like the Somerset Branch beyond Skowhegan. I never would have guessed it saw 2500 cars in its final year. That is a very interesting number, not necessarily an economic justification for retention but interesting nonetheless.

At least some of the branch lines in New England were one shipper or one industry line. Lose that business in one fell swoop and the line is likely doomed for lack of business. I think this might well be the case with many branches in northern New England.

Noel Weaver

Certainly the case up here in northern NH. NHCR's sole revenue generator south of Groveton to Whitefield, 20 some-odd miles, is a couple odd cars here and there for Presby Plastics, as there are currently no cars in storage on this end of the line. Still amazes me that this line is still operating, never mind the fact a Cownway Scenic train made it to Whitefield village just a few months back.

Noel Weaver wrote:At least some of the branch lines in New England were one shipper or one industry line. Lose that business in one fell swoop and the line is likely doomed for lack of business. I think this might well be the case with many branches in northern New England.

Very much agreed but who the h*** was shipping 2500 cars a year to and from the Dover-Foxcroft Branch in the early 1980s? Was there a paper mill down close to the junction with the main line that meant the upper end was desolate?

Maine Central was willing to operate the branch lines as long as they didn't incur serious deficits and E. Spencer Miller
made comments to the effect that he felt that this was part of the company's common carrier obligation. Handling
pulp at nominal cost to the mills was rewarded by generating substantial income from shipping finished product from
the mills. Minimal maintenance to branchline track and use of older, sometimes purpose-rebuilt rolling stock helped
keep the costs down. This was not Guilford's business model- if it wasn't clearly profitable, they weren't interested.
I was told by management people that after Guilford took over they quoted rates that reflected the cost of new
rolling stock and increased track maintenance. The wood traffic quickly transitioned to truck and at about the same
time some of the finished product began to be trucked to warehousing operations on competing carriers. The strikes
simply speeded the transition.

I really appreciate the insight on this. I had always wondered why enormous pulp yards full of wood racks disappeared.

Do you have any idea who the primary shipper on the Dover-Foxcroft Branch might have been? I remain amazed by the 2500 car/year figure.

gokeefe wrote:Do you have any idea who the primary shipper on the Dover-Foxcroft Branch might have been? I remain amazed by the 2500 car/year figure.

International Paper

So as I understand it International Paper was shipping 2500 cars/year of pulp logs on the Dover-Foxcroft branch?

WX1-XW2 made three round trips Waterville to Foxcroft each week usually handling 20-25 cars of pulpwood each
trip but also consider this was a small piece of the total pulpwood traffic. Wood was loaded east of Bangor on both
the Vanceboro mainline and the Calais branch, at a woodyard at East Newport, on the Bingham branch and at the
chipmill in Oakland as well as received in interchange with BAR. Most this wood ended up at Waterville where it was
handled westward by a Tuesday thru Saturday Waterville to Rileys afternoon turn job- WI2-IW1. I've seen this train
at times with 4 units and up towards 100 cars including chemical traffic from IMC in Orrington. IP was the dominant
shipper of pulpwood by rail with lesser amounts to Boise Cascade at Rumford and Chips to Old Town. The other mills
on the MEC mostly shipped by truck. Pulpwood is what kept the branches alive but it was low margin traffic.

NHV 669 wrote:Certainly the case up here in northern NH. NHCR's sole revenue generator south of Groveton to Whitefield, 20 some-odd miles, is a couple odd cars here and there for Presby Plastics, as there are currently no cars in storage on this end of the line. Still amazes me that this line is still operating, never mind the fact a Cownway Scenic train made it to Whitefield village just a few months back.

If Presby Plastics and the freight car storage were to disappear for good, I'm pretty sure the state would still require the line to be maintained and open for business because of the Conway Scenic. Prior to the Conway Scenic expansion in 1994, it wasn't really a big deal for them not to be connected to the national network. Now, with the size and scope of their operation, I think it is important for them to have that connection, so they can change and adapt as needed. Like Paul said in the December Wheel Report, "if the company is to survive and flourish, it has to change and grow. Mark Snyder, who was President of the Cape Cod & Hyannis Railroad back in the 1980s, once made the point with me that, if a company is not growing, then it is shrinking and headed for failure".