Railroad Fare Collection

Silverliner II wrote:Reason Number 653 on why faregates at the Center City stations are not needed:
Since you would be using whatever fare instrument to tap in/tap out at Center City anyway, then just have the tap machines placed in various locations within the stations and mark off the "Paid Fare" zones with yellow striping and signage as is done on other systems. The end result would be the same, since you would have to tap in/out at whatever station you are getting off at.

I think I've already seen some posts discussing this already that have said it can't work. Are you proposing barriers at every outlying station, otherwise what's happening that will require passengers to tap their outlying station?

Silverliner II wrote:...mark off the "Paid Fare" zones with yellow striping and signage as is done on other systems.

That's a Proof of Payment fare system (often mislabeled the "honor system"). While I've written that's the only feasible way to get the crews out of fare collection so we can reduce crew consist and increase service, the area transportation officials and SEPTA have no stomach for it at this time. There is too much fear of rampant fare evasion.

However, every North American commuter rail system that has implemented a 'tag off' fare system does it on top of POP. Furthermore, every one of them also has conventional ticket machines at every station. In other words, none of them force riders to use the tag-off: it's there as a convenience to regular users who don't ride enough to use a pass, or are making a trip outside their usual pass zone.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:While I've written that's the only feasible way to get the crews out of fare collection so we can reduce crew consist and increase service, the area transportation officials and SEPTA have no stomach for it at this time. There is too much fear of rampant fare evasion.

And that would be solved with proper fare enforcement and patrols, as is done on other POP systems, but SEPTA probably doesn't have the stomach for that either. Heck, I see enough fare evasion on the subway now as it is. Some of the manpower displaced from trains could be diverted to fare enforcement.

But again, the other problem SEPTA has with reducing crew size is the fact that they don't/can't open all cars on all trains all the time due to varying platform lengths. Prior to GO Transit giving CN the boot on operating their trains, all crews were just an engineer and conductor, who did announcements and door operation. With Bombardier now providing operating crews, GO trains run with a 3-person crew on all trains: engineer and conductor in the cab, and a Customer Service Ambassador who does the door operation and announcements.

Here's a link to a pretty comprehensive "toolkit" report from TCRP on Proof of Payment fare collection from 2002:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tc ... rpt_80.pdf

Jersey_Mike wrote:Another fantastic point. On rapid transit systems if you miss your train at worst you're looking at a 30 or so minute wait until the next one (and that's overnight on a Sunday), but on SEPTA that wait will probably be on the order of an hour for all times outside the peak. If this another stealth fare increase where SEPTA begins to tag people with a CC zone fare every time they miss their train by a few minutes then choose to transfer to a different mode of transportation or get something to eat while passing the time? Just when you think they couldn't go any lower :-\

Hopefully it's not a deliberate 'stealth fare increase' and one won't need to jump through too many hoops in order to get credit back for cases where one taps in and for whatever reason doesn't ride, or doesn't get to their destination in time to tap out before the system thinks they were taking two trips.

Patrick Boylan wrote:

Jersey_Mike wrote:Another fantastic point. On rapid transit systems if you miss your train at worst you're looking at a 30 or so minute wait until the next one (and that's overnight on a Sunday), but on SEPTA that wait will probably be on the order of an hour for all times outside the peak. If this another stealth fare increase where SEPTA begins to tag people with a CC zone fare every time they miss their train by a few minutes then choose to transfer to a different mode of transportation or get something to eat while passing the time? Just when you think they couldn't go any lower :-\

Hopefully it's not a deliberate 'stealth fare increase' and one won't need to jump through too many hoops in order to get credit back for cases where one taps in and for whatever reason doesn't ride, or doesn't get to their destination in time to tap out before the system thinks they were taking two trips.

I actually found out something about that, and it answers my own question as well. Apparently, they are putting in a feature where if a rider changes their mind about taking a trip for any reason after tapping into a station, they can tap out at that same station and the fare will be reversed.

Silverliner II wrote:I actually found out something about that, and it answers my own question as well. Apparently, they are putting in a feature where if a rider changes their mind about taking a trip for any reason after tapping into a station, they can tap out at that same station and the fare will be reversed.

So the homeless and panhandlers only need to but a ticket to another CC station to be able to enter the paid zone and sleep or beg? The ticket is reusable over and over again?

I'm not sure what's so special about the paid zone vs the unpaid zone. The homeless person can enter the station to sleep or beg, so what difference does it make if they can also enter the paid zone? Most of the paid zone would be on the platforms, which usually are not as nice as the station mezzanines.

Patrick Boylan wrote:I'm not sure what's so special about the paid zone vs the unpaid zone. The homeless person can enter the station to sleep or beg, so what difference does it make if they can also enter the paid zone? Most of the paid zone would be on the platforms, which usually are not as nice as the station mezzanines.

At Market East, the waiting area would be in the paid area. Panhandlers routinely walk the platforms.

How much security is going into this RFID system to prevent wedges from being placed on remote tag out stations?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW3RGbQTLhE

Jfrey: Good video-it is something that SEPTA will have to watch for now that this is out in the open...
That is why readers like this need video surveillance-for more then just vandalism...

I will add the webpage for Ontario's PRESTO card system... www.prestocard.ca
This can give an idea on how a Smart Card system can eventually work...

MACTRAXX

Security risks involving RFID technology is nothing new. Hopefully it doesn't take a link to a you-tube video on railroad.net to open up SEPTA"s eyes. RFID crimes are more prevelant now since the technology is more widespread (gas cards, door keys, credit cards, and in other cities, transit fares). The are ways to remediate RFID theft, though it ususally requires reactive action on the part of the victim, in this case, the rider or the serivce provider (SEPTA).

In addition to preventing wedges from being installed on every tap out location on the system (similar to wedging an ATM machine), SEPTA will have to keep an eye on transactions (as will riders) to be sure cloned cards aren't floating around the system. A tap-out at Media and Doylestown on the same account within a few minutes of each other should be a dead give away that a card was cloned. Since the hardware used to create RFID cards can be bought from your favorite online technology dealer, it will be interesting to see how much of a problem this becomes with RFID in general, and not just in the transit world. Technology is not always the best answer.

MACTRAXX wrote:Jfrey: Good video-it is something that SEPTA will have to watch for now that this is out in the open...
That is why readers like this need video surveillance-for more then just vandalism...

I will add the webpage for Ontario's PRESTO card system... http://www.prestocard.ca
This can give an idea on how a Smart Card system can eventually work...

MACTRAXX

I bought a PRESTO card on my last trip to Toronto. Got a nice balance on it for my next trip up, and boy did it come in handy!

MACTRAXX wrote:I will add the webpage for Ontario's PRESTO card system... http://www.prestocard.ca
This can give an idea on how a Smart Card system can eventually work...

At last count, there were nine North American commuter rail systems with smart cards and tag-off for fare collection.

Every one of them also has ticket machines at every station.

Every one of them uses POP (proof of payment) fare verification.

Not one of them has turnstiles in their stations.

Not one of them forces all riders to use the tag-off system like SEPTA is proposing.

At last count, there were nine North American commuter rail systems with smart cards and tag-off for fare collection.

Every one of them also has ticket machines at every station.

And most of us here would agree that SEPTA could use ticket machines at every station as well (if NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North can do it, well what's SEPTA's excuse again?)

Every one of them uses POP (proof of payment) fare verification.

True for the nine systems in question, and that is how they have been since startup, unlike the older systems like SEPTA and others in the Northeast. SEPTA would have to deploy resources they don't want to commit to (even if they could do it with existing personnel under new assignments) for POP to work. But it could be done with commitment and rider education.

Not one of them has turnstiles in their stations.

True for those nine systems and all the others running... even Metra removed the turnstiles from its Electric Division stations some time ago when they realized they were more of a hinderance than a help.

Not one of them forces all riders to use the tag-off system like SEPTA is proposing.

That is true too. Even on GO, you only have to tag out on PRESTO cards with specific types of fares. Wasn't SEPTA planning some kind of alternative for people using Trailpasses and Transpasses with the crew scanning them on board? Especially since all the Trailpasses have "Anywhere" privileges on weekends?