Renaissance car the new mainstay in the corridor?

Hello all my VIA fans, I'm back in the GTA area and since here I'm seeing renaissance cars more and more, before there was only 1 train in the day time that had renaissance cars that came into Toronto after the cancellation of the over night train to Montreal. I now have confirmed the Renaissance cars are running... Toronto-Montreal, Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, Toronto-Niagara Falls. I wonder will this become the normal? A mix of LRC and Rennaisance in the corridor and no more Budd cars, or is this increase of renaissance equipement just due to the fact the LRC cars will soon be going in for a overhaul. Any chance of us seeing Renaissance cars Toronto-Sarnia or Toronto-Windsor anytime soon? I welcome all replies.

Over the last few years, VIA began running Renaissance cars on more of its Montreal-Toronto runs, and other routes (Toronto-Ottawa, Niagara Falls, etc) that they hadn't been used on before. I believe this was more of a shift, as VIA moved more of the cars formerly running in Montreal-Quebec service onto the other stretch of the corridor. This may have been intended to spread the "burden" of the Ren cars across the system, and allow more LRC consists to operate on the QC City-Montreal route.

I can say a few things to your questions:

-First of all, the Budd cars will not be disappearing any time soon. The HEP-2 fleet is still reliable, and (surprisingly) much less costly to operate than the Renaissance cars. Given that they were all completely overhauled in the mid 90s for service, and have since had major interior work, they are certain to be around for years.

-Secondly, the days of the Renaissance cars are numbered. Why? They cost more to operate than they can generate in revenue, and crews hate them. They have been plagued with problems from the start, and are regarded at present by many as the roughest ride you can get in the corridor (in terms of bouncing around). I have it on rather reliable sources that VIA plans to remove all Renaissance cars from corridor service once the LRC rebuild program is complete. Despite more of them operating on certain routes, there are (if I recall correctly) fewer sets in service now than there were in past years. The only reason they're holding around for now is to maintain capacity while the LRCs are rebuilt. So in a few years, expect to see nothing but the rebuilt LRC and the HEP-2 cars in the corridor.

Having said that, the cars are likely to remain on the Ocean for quite some time to come, until VIA finally (we can wish anyway) has the capacity to buy new equipment to replace this second-hand British junk.

I have heard rumours that the Ren car shells stored at the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay have been moved to the MMC, any truth to this?

timberley wrote:
-Secondly, the days of the Renaissance cars are numbered. Why? They cost more to operate than they can generate in revenue, and crews hate them. They have been plagued with problems from the start, and are regarded at present by many as the roughest ride you can get in the corridor (in terms of bouncing around).
...

Having said that, the cars are likely to remain on the Ocean for quite some time to come, until VIA finally (we can wish anyway) has the capacity to buy new equipment to replace this second-hand British junk.

There has been much discussion on this forum about the pros and cons of the Renaissance equipment, so I'm not going to get into this in depth, but I would like to make a few points. As far as crews hating them - all crews do not hate them; that's for sure. I have ridden this equipment many times and gave up counting when I reached 25 trips in sleeper and 25 in the VIA 1/Business Class service. A lot of crew have told me that they have grown to like the equipment. A common theme that I have heard is: "At first I hated them, but now I like them" or similar.

As for the rough riding, this is variable and certainly I have noticed bouncing at the end of the cars - but LRCs and HEP cars are prone to that as well. Many passengers and journalists have said the equipment is very smooth riding. Well-travelled railway journalist Karl Zimmermann wrote about this in a recent Passenger Train Journal. A friend who is a complete reactionary and on principle detests anything new was overwhelmed by the riding quality of the Ren. cars - and he liked the single seats too. The problem is the tracks, not the equipment. I have recently travelled on British main-lines in equipment built by the same manufacturer as the Ren. at speeds of 125 mph. Even when we had to sit at the ends of the cars the ride was incredibly smooth. We even changed tracks at 70 mph whist enjoying an "at-your-seat" (and cooked on board) meal and not a drop of our wine was spilled.

I think VIA will have to keep the Ren. trains for some time. The LRC rebuild is taking a long time. There were 10 cars sent in for rebuilding quite a while ago and only one has been completed. There are 98 LRC cars in the fleet. I will let the reader do the math. The federal government, to its credit, has given VIA hundreds of millions of dollars for infrastructure. The track and signalling improvements are intended to increase speeds (don't hold your breath for that to happen - just about every train has been slowed down yet again with the new timetable of 26 April) and to permit more frequent service in the corridor. There was no funding for new equipment or locomotives. From memory, I don't think any Conservative government has bought VIA any new trains, so with "belt-tightening" promised by the feds I don't see any for a long time. Without the Ren. cars there can be no increase in service. Remember, when the LRC rebuilds are completed many years from now there will only be a net increase of 10 cars available. So if the Ren. trains go, service will have to be reduced. That's the reality.

@marquisofmissisauga

You do bring up some good points. I should be fair, and acknowledge that not all crews dislike the Ren equipment, but I know that many do (this is based on communication with crews on recent trips on the Ocean, and from other's reports of those in the Corridor). Now to be fair, there is nothing statistically reliable about anecdotes like that, but there are certainly enough crew members (and passengers) who have their issues with the cars. Personally, I find the sleepers to be quite nice (although the corridors are so small it's silly), but I don't care for the coaches at all. The single seating option is nice, but otherwise I find them to be a real nuisance to sit in for more than an hour or so (although I've still made plenty of 15+ hour trips in them). Still, they're a decent enough way to travel, and I'd still pick them any day over a car, bus, or plane.

Yes, in terms of the rough ride the track is more the culprit. For that, the HEP-2 and LRC cars fair somewhat better due to their weight, but can still be very rough on sections. We can hope that current track work will help some of that, but...

In terms of plans to remove Ren cars from service, this is what I have heard from reliable sources about what VIA is in fact planning (although this could change with time). The primary reason for that is the cost of operating them vs. the revenue they generate...yes, in order to increase capacity they will need to keep many in service, but if that doesn't happen (if we see cutbacks, for instance), the Ren cars will be the first to be sidelined, simply as a cost saving measure more than anything. Yet as you mention, their are hopes to increase service, so the Ren cars would need to be a part of it. Looking at the new federal government, and the promises of "belt-tightening" (as you mention), I fear for what VIA will have to deal with in the future. But we'll try to keep this away from politics

As for the LRC rebuild program, I expect that will speed up in the near future. Remember when 6400 was the first of the F40's to be rebuilt? It was in the shop for quite some time, and then it was also quite some time before 6402 came along. But that was with the necessity for testing the prototype. Now they're popping rebuilds out pretty well every month. So expect the pace of the LRC rebuilds to pick up once the prototype is through some more testing.

Id have to agree with marquisofmissisauga the renaissance fleet may not be the best equipment purchased by VIA rail but it was a smart purchase @ the asking price. Id have say the ride quality is excellent on welded rail but yes on jointed track its the worst ride out there. If VIA chose to up the funding for a MOD to the renaissance fleet a simple truck rebuild with better dampeners could improve the ride quality substantially. Remember they were built for European finely welded rail and concrete ties, not our stone-age north America trackage system. I understand some crews may not like the cars but they better get use to them as I cant see VIA purchasing anything in the form of passenger cars for decades. As Gas prices rise more and more people are finding alternative modes of transportation, so I expect VIA ridership to steadily increase in the corridor. They may sideline / storage the cars for reasons or ridership decline years away, but to get rid of them proudly wont happen.

I do like the 2-1 seating as when Im not traveling with my significant other I like to sit alone and be left alone. I do respect people of different weights as Im a fairly average size person 6ft /180lbs however when im traveling and the person who is 295+lbs wants to squeeze into the narrow VIA seat next to me in 2-2 cars I dream of the renaissance single seating. Im really interested to see if the reason VIA has not introduced the Ren Cars to routes such as Toronto-Sarnia and Toronto-Windsor is because the track quality along those routes south of London is proudly the worst in the corridor. I use to ride the International in Amtraks Superliners on the jointed track from sarnia to London and it has to be the worst and bumpiest ride id ever had in the corridor.

It would be way to costly to get rid of the fleet vs modifying them, again. lol. Lets see England couldn't afford to operate them or have Locos for them, the rest of Europe didn't want them, china and japan found them too heavy and wanted 2-2 seating in those cars, And without a waiver ( which probably won't happen) they would never be allowed to operate in the USA, scrapping them you may get $150-500k each for something you put well over $1M each into. So to speak its a catch 22, this is a situation where you just have to work with what you have until you can do much, much better.

You guys bring up an interesting point about the ride quality relative to seating position. Physics dictates that sitting on the end of a train car (or airplane or bus) will result in a rougher ride. To Buddah's comment about Superliners giving rough rides on the west end of the corridor, even a Super rides poorly if you're outside of the wheelbase. I once rode to Kansas City in the first row and wasn't pleased - I make sure to ask for a central location now. For the same reason I never sit in the back of a bus (behind the axle), and I try to sit as close to the wing in an airliner as possible.

Everyone: Look at my new topic about new single-level cars for VIA Corridor services...

I do feel that since VIA has so much invested in the Renaissance equipment how about dedicating them-if VIA orders new single-level cars-to Quebec medium-haul and Halifax-Montreal services so the Montreal Maintenance Centre can regularly service them as I believe they do now? Let me add that I am all for the rebuilding of VIA's LRC car fleet if they decide to do so...but an opportunity to acquire new single-level cars is something VIA should be at least taking into consideration...

MACTRAXX

I'll just add two more things:

First, to clarify, my comments about VIA planning to retire the Ren cars from corridor service in the coming years was (albeit second hand), word from folks at VIA Rail, as to what the plans were. Nothing is officially set in stone, but word is that the current VIA management would be very happy to be able to alleviate themselves of operating cars that cost more in maintenance than they bring in in revenues.

My second point is a response to MACTRAXX: First off, VIA has already committed to rebuilding the entire LRC fleet (the money is there, and the contract has been signed with IRSI), so it's not an "if" sort of proposal, but a definite forward action.

As to the possibility of acquiring new single-level corridor cars, I don't expect to see this anytime in the near future. Given the still recovering state of the economy, and the new government's commitment to "streamline" government spending by cutting "non-essential" or "unnecessary" spending (do you want to guess how high up on that list VIA ranks??), I would think it more likely to see cutbacks to VIA's budget (the new federal budget will in fact cut VIA's budget by $65 million, including $31 million in its operating budget), which may lead to cutbacks in service. Simple answer: VIA will finish rebuild programs where money was already committed, but there will quite certainly be no new equipment coming any time soon. As nice as it would be, even piggybacking on an Amtrak order would require money which VIA will not get.

(And to think, at a time when passenger rail is becoming more and more evident as the best green solution for transportation in the future.... but I digress! I think politics are supposed to be "off topic" for these forums )

Sorry to get a bit off-topic, but what makes the Ren cars so expensive to operate?

Speculation, but the 2+1 seating (compared to 2+2 in Budd/LRC) means you have 25% less ticket revenue per car to cover costs. If a Budd car seats 60 at $100/trip average, 3 trips/day average, 80% load factor, and runs 300 days/year, that's $4.3m/year revenue, where the comparable Renn car brings $2.85m revenue. You're looking at a $1.5m/year shortfall per car, covering the same maintenance, inspection, and crew costs.

While the Ren cars have fewer seats (48 seats in a Ren coach as compared with 68 seats in either an LRC or Budd coach), VIA makes up for it by running more Ren cars per train. So while revenue per car may be less, the revenue per train should balance out somewhat. I can neither confirm nor dispute the claim that the Renaissance trains have a higher operating cost but the extra work required to add/remove cars from a consist due to the semi-permanent nature of the coupling system may be a factor.

Ken V wrote:While the Ren cars have fewer seats (48 seats in a Ren coach as compared with 68 seats in either an LRC or Budd coach), VIA makes up for it by running more Ren cars per train. So while revenue per car may be less, the revenue per train should balance out somewhat.

While the revenue per train may balance out, that extra car per train also increases its O&M costs; meaning profits per train is less. Anyway you look at it, it costs VIA more to run Ren cars over LRC or Budd cars. The only real savings VIA received came from buying all the Ren cars at the firesale price - too bad they're giving some of those savings away by not even putting all the cars into service by scrapping the last dozen or so never completed.