Rule 280b Approach Normal

Can someone NORAC qualified answer this?
Is this signal in use on Amtrak, presumably in 562 territory? If an "N" is lit on the distant signal, what does that imply approaching the home signal?

The 'N' boards are a distant for the 'C' boards indicating Rule 281a "Clear to Next Interlocking". They relieve the engineer of a train running under a Rule 556(?) cab signal failure from approaching the next signal prepared to stop. They haven't proven to be very popular, even where fixed distants are provided as it doesn't save much time and the dispatcher could probably tell the engineer if the 'C' board is displayed if they really had to make time.

Thanks Mike. I think my question really stems from the second sentence of the indication for Rule 280a, CLEAR TO NEXT INTERLOCKING, which states "Trains with inoperative cab signals must approach the next home signal prepared to stop, unless APPROACH NORMAL (Rule 280b) is displayed on a distant signal prior to the home signal." Does this mean if the distant signal is displaying something less restrictive than APPROACH and an "N" light that a "C" light will be displayed at the next home signal?

Jersey_Mike wrote:The 'N' boards are a distant for the 'C' boards indicating Rule 281a "Clear to Next Interlocking". They relieve the engineer of a train running under a Rule 556(?) cab signal failure from approaching the next signal prepared to stop. They haven't proven to be very popular, even where fixed distants are provided as it doesn't save much time and the dispatcher could probably tell the engineer if the 'C' board is displayed if they really had to make time.

Dispatchers can never tell an engineer if a route is dispayed unless your stopped at the signal.
example : dispatcher tell engineer I gave you route, The engineer can still not assume a route or speed, as the signal could be restricting or in worse scenario burned out which would be a stop.
In your scenario what if the C board were burned out ?

I have always wondered why the 562 rules don't allow trains running under rule 556 to proceed on home signal indication to the first or second block boundary without needing the 'C' lamp displayed. A Clear signal on the home signal means that two blocks are clear of obstruction, an approach means 1 block is clear. Trains could safely travel the first block point under the clear, then approach the second block prepared to stop or just approach the first block prepared to stop under an approach.

Jersey_Mike wrote:I have always wondered why the 562 rules don't allow trains running under rule 556 to proceed on home signal indication to the first or second block boundary without needing the 'C' lamp displayed. A Clear signal on the home signal means that two blocks are clear of obstruction, an approach means 1 block is clear. Trains could safely travel the first block point under the clear, then approach the second block prepared to stop or just approach the first block prepared to stop under an approach.

You're confusing me now Mike. I thought 562 signaling meant cab signals only except for distant and home signals. What you suggest might work between Bergen and Rea where the rules in effect are 562/int, and the home signal at one interlocking can be considered the distant signal for the next interlocking. But the distances between interlockings on the Harrisburg line and especially on the (former) New England division are much greater. I don't think any engineer operating under Rule 554/556 would want to proceed without knowing he had the railroad all the way to the next interlocking.

I don't think any engineer operating under Rule 554/556 would want to proceed without knowing he had the railroad all the way to the next interlocking.

It's the same process that is used when one hits an END OF BLOCK sign. The train gets an Approach at the last auto and then has to be prepared to stop at a fixed sign. The alternative to the 'C' lamp is to proceed at restricted speed for the whole distance, which does happyn from time to time. Amtrak put this into effect once when they lost signal power on the NEC once. No absolute block was needed as the trains were all moving at restricted speed. The full home signals at interlockings inform the engineer about the state of the track ahead. Without cabs the engineers could be able to proceed to the end of the authority granted by the home signal where restricted speed operation would resume.

Anyway, here's a photo a found of the 'C' lamp in action, but see if you can tell why it is either unnecessary or being improperly displayed.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1228995

It's the same process that is used when one hits an END OF BLOCK sign. The train gets an Approach at the last auto and then has to be prepared to stop at a fixed sign.

There is not always an automatic signal before an EOB sign, nor are there wayside automatics on every piece of track.

There is not always an automatic signal before an EOB sign, nor are there wayside automatics on every piece of track.

I am just saying that it is acceptable for engineers to pass a signal and begin restricted speed at a fixed sign.

Right, as knowing the location of such signs are part of an Engineers PC knowledge.

Jersey_Mike wrote:The 'N' boards are a distant for the 'C' boards indicating Rule 281a "Clear to Next Interlocking". They relieve the engineer of a train running under a Rule 556(?) cab signal failure from approaching the next signal prepared to stop. They haven't proven to be very popular, even where fixed distants are provided as it doesn't save much time and the dispatcher could probably tell the engineer if the 'C' board is displayed if they really had to make time.

This is all well and good except for the fact that rule 556 does not apply in rule 562 territory.

In 562, there are ONLY three ways a train can move when cab signals fail. Rule 563 applies, 554/556 are ONLY for ABS/251-261-Int rule/CSS territory

1) a Form D authorizing rule 563 inbetween two locations/interlockings
2) run at Restricted Speed
3) dispatcher displays "C Light"

the C light only tells you that the stretch of track INBETWEEN the two interlockings is clear, and gives no indication about the status of the next interlocking. All home signals much be approached prepared to stop, again, unless Approach Normal is displayed. I think that its not used on Amtrak (High Line in NJ) or NJT 562 installations is because the pax trains are relatively "race car like" in their stopping and accelorating. If the RR had an Approach Normal light, the engineer would not have to apporach the next home signal prepared to stop.

PERSONALLY i think there a lot of short comings to the 562 system, and that they should install/keep distant automatic signals to interlockings (where reasonable, on the High Line inbetween Newark, NJ and NY, its not necessary) because they tell not only if the interlocking is set at a stop signal, but also if you are diverting or continuing straight. But more importantly, gives the engineer a reminder when his cabs are cut out because of a failure, that the next signal could be a stop signal, as the approach on teh distant would be a bit of a slap in the face wake up call...