Aggressive NS growth as a result of Pan Am Southern?

now, in recent weeks, norfolk southern and pan am railways announced a joint venture on pan am southern. with norfolk southern in the state, what does it spell for the ex-conrail lines taken over by CSX in 1997?. well, NS has been expanding by leaps and bounds, most notably NS's partnership with canadian national to upgrade the mid-american corridor out of chicago. frankly, i smell another wave coming. now, when NS began it's campain to take over conrail in the early 90s, CSX realized what a problem it could be, and a takeover battle insued. well, NS didn't get all of conrail, and CSX got all the former B&A routes north of new york city, along with owning part of the lines in conneticut, rhode island, upstate new york, and the lines in southern new hampshire and vermont. well, it seems to me that NS wants the old B&A routes under it's rule, as a joint venture on one of the most used freight corridors in massachuetts gave NS access to boston, deerfeild, ayer, and numerous other large cities, includding access to worcester on pan am trackage north of the city. now, it appears that NS wants to have CSX's share of conrail, as it is proving extremely profitable. this kind of powerstruggle could be distaterous! with one of the big four in syracruse(the union pacific), it makes you wonder if they will throw their cards down in a third party move, of partner with one of those carriers, offering a route between boston and san fransisco, on a single road. your thoughts anyone?

Disastrous? Since when is competition disastrous? They do not want the B&A or it's lines nor will they ever get them.

They are going to try to compete the best they can with the B&M and grow the traffic base.

competition is good for buisness. maybe it will save the customers some money and help their bottom line also.

daylight4449 wrote:frankly, i smell another wave coming.

I don't know what you smell, but Warren Buffett you are not.

-otto-

daylight4449 wrote:now, in recent weeks, norfolk southern and pan am railways announced a joint venture on pan am southern. with norfolk southern in the state, what does it spell for the ex-conrail lines taken over by CSX in 1997?. well, NS has been expanding by leaps and bounds, most notably NS's partnership with canadian national to upgrade the mid-american corridor out of chicago. frankly, i smell another wave coming. now, when NS began it's campain to take over conrail in the early 90s, CSX realized what a problem it could be, and a takeover battle insued. well, NS didn't get all of conrail, and CSX got all the former B&A routes north of new york city, along with owning part of the lines in conneticut, rhode island, upstate new york, and the lines in southern new hampshire and vermont. well, it seems to me that NS wants the old B&A routes under it's rule, as a joint venture on one of the most used freight corridors in massachuetts gave NS access to boston, deerfeild, ayer, and numerous other large cities, includding access to worcester on pan am trackage north of the city. now, it appears that NS wants to have CSX's share of conrail, as it is proving extremely profitable. this kind of powerstruggle could be distaterous! with one of the big four in syracruse(the union pacific), it makes you wonder if they will throw their cards down in a third party move, of partner with one of those carriers, offering a route between boston and san fransisco, on a single road. your thoughts anyone?

I think daylight4449 meant that Norfolk Southern wanted the B&M routes under its rule, because the cities Daylight listed are NOT on the B&A, but they ARE on the B&M. And the truth is, once the recession is over (and its ending, believe me), there very well could be another merger wave. Look what happened after the 1979-1983 recession: CSX, Norfolk Southern, UP-MoPac-WP, SPSF (unsucessful), BN-Frisco and Guilford. When recessions end, railroads tend to merge. Another example: in the aftermath of the 1958 recession, the B&O-C&O affiliation took place, along with the Erie-Lackawanna merger, and the N&W acquired the Wabash, Nickel Plate, AC&Y and the P&WV.
All the class one railroads are strong, with their operating ratios being in the mid to low 70's (CSX, for example, had/has an operating ratio of 73%. Pretty healty when compared to 86.8% just five years ago.) All the class ones are flush with cash, and could take advantage of lower share prices to acquire stock in their principal connections. The DM&E-CPR merger reminds me of the VGN-N&W merger. If anything, that could be a sign of what's coming up. Perhaps no class-one mergers, but more regionals being subsumed back into their larger counterparts.

daylight4449 wrote: with one of the big four in syracruse(the union pacific), it makes you wonder if they will throw their cards down in a third party move, of partner with one of those carriers, offering a route between boston and san fransisco, on a single road. your thoughts anyone?

(A) Since when is UP in Syracuse?
(B) Are you suggesting that Syracuse, NY is some sort of linchpin of the entire North American railroad universe?
(C) What does Syracuse have to do with NS or the old B&A other than being a potential pass-through city for traffic to/from B&A territory?

JoeCollege wrote:

daylight4449 wrote: with one of the big four in syracruse(the union pacific), it makes you wonder if they will throw their cards down in a third party move, of partner with one of those carriers, offering a route between boston and san fransisco, on a single road. your thoughts anyone?

(A) Since when is UP in Syracuse?
(B) Are you suggesting that Syracuse, NY is some sort of linchpin of the entire North American railroad universe?
(C) What does Syracuse have to do with NS or the old B&A other than being a potential pass-through city for traffic to/from B&A territory?

the UP runs the pacific fruit express between washington, and the endpoint is in syracruse

I believe that is incorrect. On the UP I think the train you're referring to is ZWASK [SK standing for Selkirk] and on CSX its Q090/091.

daylight4449 wrote:now, in recent weeks, norfolk southern and pan am railways announced a joint venture on pan am southern. with norfolk southern in the state, what does it spell for the ex-conrail lines taken over by CSX in 1997?. well, NS has been expanding by leaps and bounds, most notably NS's partnership with canadian national to upgrade the mid-american corridor out of chicago. frankly, i smell another wave coming. now, when NS began it's campain to take over conrail in the early 90s, CSX realized what a problem it could be, and a takeover battle insued. well, NS didn't get all of conrail, and CSX got all the former B&A routes north of new york city, along with owning part of the lines in conneticut, rhode island, upstate new york, and the lines in southern new hampshire and vermont. well, it seems to me that NS wants the old B&A routes under it's rule, as a joint venture on one of the most used freight corridors in massachuetts gave NS access to boston, deerfeild, ayer, and numerous other large cities, includding access to worcester on pan am trackage north of the city. now, it appears that NS wants to have CSX's share of conrail, as it is proving extremely profitable. this kind of powerstruggle could be distaterous! with one of the big four in syracruse(the union pacific), it makes you wonder if they will throw their cards down in a third party move, of partner with one of those carriers, offering a route between boston and san fransisco, on a single road. your thoughts anyone?

Some of this is slightly backwards. NS DID began a campaign to BUY all of Conrail (at the end of the 80's?). The Feds rebuffed this effort. In the 90's, CSX launched a buy, or takeover bid that amounted to a "sneak" attack, a middle-of-the-night bid that would have shut NS out of the Northeast Corridor. Mr Goode literally leaped out of BED to begin the legal steps to STOP this as it would been DISASTER for NS! This resulted in the Conrail jointly owned and run by the two railroads today.

GF

daylight4449 wrote:the UP runs the pacific fruit express between washington, and the endpoint is in syracruse

Actually the train terminates in South Schenectady, NY.

charlie6017 wrote:

daylight4449 wrote:the UP runs the pacific fruit express between washington, and the endpoint is in syracruse

Actually the train terminates in South Schenectady, NY.

Correct. And that doesn't mean that UP has any sort of real railroad/operational presence in Syracuse. Or South Schenectady. Selkirk either for that matter.

What does any of this UP talk have to do with Norfolk Southern?

Getting back to the original topic. Competition is good for both NS and CSX, NS is not looking to takeover any of CSX's routes just to get into the market in New England.

1)Boston is a dying market, hence the reason for CSX pulling out and PAR abandoning their old yard and barely running any more.
2)The B&A will never leave CSX control unless something major happens to the company.
3) Why would UP want to join a mjaor partnership with NS?
4) PAS did not create a upgrade love for NS. If anything, they regret it.
5) The UP train on the CSX trackage is a train that starts on UP territory and ends on CSX. But the engines are only UP for time reasons and not UP crews. It is a CSX train that solely uses UP power.

NS wanted Guilford for two reasons.....
1. Intermodal traffic
2. Auto traffic

The intermodals (AYMO/MOAY) have grown since NS got involved. JB Hunt now has offices in Ayer to handle all the trailers coming in via rail. Ayer has easy access to Rte. 2 and is very close to I-495, so placement is good.

The auto traffic will be coming once the yard is ready...have heard there could be two daily rack trains, but one to start.

HOWEVER, Guilford/Pan Am has really dropped the ball and pissed NS off....NS is more involved in daily operations than they cared to be when the venture started, due to Pan Am stopped putting up the nice facade and went back to doing things the way they have for years...nothing.

Also, i have heard that NS has taken over ALL marketing in and west of Ayer, on ALL lines, including the Conn river because they felt that Pan Am was not reaching out to current/potential customers enough.

NS will make money here....they're putting forward the effort to get and retain customers, something GRS/Pan Am failed at.

another thought:
1) NS wants to create enouugh of a presence in MA to get influence
2) with MA now owning the boston line, NS may hope to take over CSX freight opporations on the boston line