River LINE hits 9,750 riders a day

We'd welcome JCGUY to offer evidence that the mean old River Line somehow offers a service that buses could or should. The data we have, showing ridership on NJ Transit's comparable bus routes (409 and 419, among others), suggests that DLRT didn't steal or misplaced bus ridership at all. Instead the River Line created (or induced) demand.

In essence, protests like this come from entities such as Bergen County, and they're politically leaden. One could phrase the issue: "Hey, Burlington County can justify light rail; why can't we--Bergen, most populous in New Jersey--get light rail, too?" That would be preferable to what Bergen (and others) continue to do: "They don't deserve it." Not politically savvy, in our view.

Political reality also must take "north versus south" Jersey into effect. We at NJ-ARP don't like that much -- we believe in a unified rail approach -- but the split often drives rail decisions along the lines of "one for you, one for me." (If one's cynical, one can say the north plays it like Bugs Bunny does: "One for you and one for me. Two for you and one, two for me. Three for you and one, two, three for me." But the principle still holds.) Put simply, denying the River Line politically doesn't translate into creation of any other project, north or south.

Al Fazio, who heads up Bombardier Transportation's team on the River Line (it's a DBOM project), not only can be seen riding the River Line; sometimes he's seen operating a revenue-service run. We're also informed that NJ Transit Executive Director Rich Sarles has been seen on the route from time to time; if so, that's a better commitment than that of his predecessor.

JCGUY, can you please take that s off of billions? I realize that even a billion dollars is a lot of money, and I certainly agree that we spent much more than we should have for what we got, but I haven't seen any evidence that the Riverline went very far into its second billion.

JCGUY wrote:So basically, you've spent billions of dollars to transport as many people as you could move using maybe 100 buses. Meanwhile, the PATH system, Route 3, and the other arteries that actually move people are clogged and money is not being applied in force to expand their capacities. This is called a misallocation of resources. They could have used that cash to build a bridge from Cap May to Lewes and southern NJ would be better off for it. What a white elephant. Clang clang goes the trolley. Can you guys send around some photos of public officials from southern NJ using the trolley as they go about their daily business? Oh I forgot, public officials don't ride mass transit.

This is the problem with transit in this country. Why not have all 3? and more. Yes a bridge or tunnel to South Jersey would help SJ but would cost billions more than the River Line. How many people would use the tunnel/bridge? Now should it be built?? Maybe. But my first South Jersey project would be an expansion of PATCO all the way to Vineland (Hey why not). Why not extend the AC Line to Cape May or have AC service to Cape May. Why not have a rail line from Willowbrook Mall to White Elephant in the swamp or right into the city.

We really need to create real regional transportation boards that can override local politicans. If we can spend 1 trillion dollars on war (not discussing war) Why can't we spend that money building transit (Circle line in Chicago), Metro to Dulles a lot faster than planned, more transit in Los Angeles no matter the cost.

JCGUY wrote:Oh I forgot, public officials don't ride mass transit.

The mayor of Vineland does!! and the mayor of Buena Burro does as well! and Nelson Albano! They don't ride often, but they do ride. I'm glad to hear that the River Line has improved though. Just our of curiosity, what section has the most people boarding and getting off (if it's possible to tell)? I'm just curious to know how far and from where people are traveling. BTW, bridge/tunnel from Lewwes to Cape May, probably would take it, but generally low priority. It wouldn't be a bad idea to study it though, I just don't think it would be worth it/possible. Mind you, a new rail bridge to Philly, or even one to Delaware as well as maybe another car bridge would be more useful.

WaitinginSJ wrote: Just our of curiosity, what section has the most people boarding and getting off (if it's possible to tell)? I'm just curious to know how far and from where people are traveling.

That question can be answered in so many different ways, the answer often depends on the time of day, the season, and just who is traveling and when they are traveling.

As I have observed [and I have done a lot of observing during the 4 1/2 years this line has been in operation], rush hours has the most people getting on and off at Walter Rand TC [PATCO Transfer- other NJT buses; especially to/from Philly], the large park and ride station at Pennsauken-Rt.73, Palmyra, Riverton, Riverside, Delanco, Beverly-Edgewater Park, Burl. South P/R, Burl Towne Ctr [Except for Pennsauken, most of these stations have a lot of walk-up passengers from the surrounding neighborhoods. Most of these people formerly drove to PATCO, or drove all the way to Trenton and now prefer to walk to the RiverLINE station.] Those stations mentioned can be very busy as you have commuters going in BOTH directions [Camden-Philly/Trenton and Pts North].

Florence P/R is sort of weird. A lot of people get off there to go to work at the warehouses that surround the station, but a small few get on to go in either direction to work [mostly Trenton, but some to Camden-Philly].

At Roebling, you get a lot of Trenton-NYC oriented passengers, and that's followed by Bordentown [but some Philly commuters board there too.]

Trenton is another major transfer point, with about 2/3 of the passengers getting off and taking the connecting buses or walking to the State offices. The remaining 1/3 are crossing to the train station to catch the NEC north.

On weekends, the ridership changes completely. Although WRTC [Camden] accounts for most of the transfers, most of the families head to Aquarium station or to the Entertaiment Center station for the Battleship NJ. At Trenton, it seems that 75% of the RL passengers head to the NEC trains.

The weekend ridership really gets beefed up in Spring/Summer/early Fall with a lot of people going to the waterfront, and if you have a concert at either the Entertainment Center or the Soverign Bank areana, then the RL trains swell up to crush loads sometimes , especially on Saturday since the trains run later on Saturday nights.

In conclusion, a lot of the ridership is well balanced, with travel going in both directions from all stations. The RiverLINE has been a godsend to all types of travelers, State employees, commuters to Philly/NYC, and weekend warriors going to Philly/NYC.

So what's ridership at now, and what's the breakdown peak vs off peak, weekdays vs weekends, etc...?
I ask because the last few times I rode, Beverly to Palmyra 5pm, and Palmyra to Burlington 6:30pm the same weekday, and Beverly to Burlington, 4:30 to 5:30pm about 3 or 4 different weekdays, I didn't think I saw a tremedous number of passengers.
Just today however, a Saturday, about noon, I saw but did not ride a 2 car train northbound at Burlington with what looked to be at least 3/4 of one car's worth of passengers.

gardendance wrote:So what's ridership at now, and what's the breakdown peak vs off peak, weekdays vs weekends, etc...?
I ask because the last few times I rode, Beverly to Palmyra 5pm, and Palmyra to Burlington 6:30pm the same weekday, and Beverly to Burlington, 4:30 to 5:30pm about 3 or 4 different weekdays, I didn't think I saw a tremedous number of passengers.
Just today however, a Saturday, about noon, I saw but did not ride a 2 car train northbound at Burlington with what looked to be at least 3/4 of one car's worth of passengers.

In my personal experience, weeknights around 5pm the train is SRO leaving Walter Rand. Usually after it gets through the stretch around Cinnaminson (Palmyra, Cinnaminson, Riverton, Delanco, etc) its thins out a good amount.

That was just about my experience in my Burlington to Philly 9-5 commuting days, and corresponding
Typically I could always get a seat, and a hook to hang my bicycle, going into Philly.

Also typically the 5:07-5:11pm departure from Broadway would be 2 cars, subsequent trains were typically single cars, which confused me a lot since I never managed, and couldn't figure how anybody else could manage, to leave a skyscraper desk in Philly at 5pm to make that 2 car train in Camden. the 5:22-5:26 single car was virtually always jammed, subsequent 15 minute trains rarely had unavailable seats, again both for me and my albatros bicycle.

On the rare times I got out early it always seemed trains out of Camden 3:45 to 5pm were also crowded, my gut feeling was from Rugtgers students and Aquarium families.