Empire state express consist

I was looking through a few timetables from the 60s, the period just before the changeover to "Empire Service;" and I discovered to my surprise that all the way up to the end of its operation the Empire State Express carried a "parlor car." That got my attention for a couple of reasons: "parlor cars" are something I associate with the New Haven and PRR day trains (and some others such as Milwaukee Road and GM&O, but predominately NH & PRR) and I did not know the NYC ran any. Were the NYC parlor cars operated on the ESE the usual floor plan to this kind of equipment, i.e., rotating swivel seats? Were they NYC-owned equipment, i.e., not Pullman?

NYC operated quite a few parlor cars, since it had numerous daytime runs both in the East and Midwest. In the postwar years, at least, I think all of these were NYC-owned, but except for the "Empire State" cars, I think all were conventional heavyweights. Six parlor cars were built in 1941 for the original "Empire". I haven't seen a diagram, but the Official Register of Passenger Cars shows a seating capacity of 35. The parlor(s) were placed at the head of the train, so that coach passengers would have access to the observation-lounge car.

The train never had an absolutely fixed consist, but since only two trainsets were needed for the service, there was the ability to include three such parlor cars in each train.

Herb Harwood

Not entirely sure here, but I think that, at the end of NYC, all parlor car service was operated with Budd-built 10 RMT-6 DBR sleepers from the VALLEY series. Prior to that, I know thatBudd-built 22 RMT sleepers from the BAY series were used (same as those converted into the sleepercoaches). Occasionally, the mid-train tavern lounges were also used. I think that by the mid-1960s, all of the real parlor cars had been scrapped or sold off to Mexico.

I remember reading somewhere (I think) that a few of the NYC coaches are in a Museum in the PA/NY area.

Actually, two 1941-vintage Budd-Built parlor cars remained on NYC's active roster, each named for a NY Governor: they were the Herbert H. Lehman and the Levi P. Morton. At least one (the Lehman) was briefly used in Amtrak service.

These cars originally had center-facing and oversize armchairs, but these were (unfortunately) replaced by post-modern style chairs that brought quite a number of complaints (I've seen these chairs elsewhere, but can't recall their proper name or their designer).

These cars never had the conventional swivel chairs associated with the NH and PRR parlor cars. I believe the car (or cars, as I think both were used) had been stored by Penn Central and it was entirely possible their furniture may have been removed before the cars were pressed into Amtrak service...

Well now, some interesting responses here . . . So it seems possible that the "parlor car" on the ESE referred to in the public TT of the mid 60s could have been any one of:

- a 10-6 sleeper
- a tavern lounge car
- One of the original ESE parlor cars (Herbert H. Lehman or Levi P. Morton), refurnished in "mod."

Perhaps someone with an NYC Passenger Train Consists book (I assume they had these) from the 60s can enlighten us and settle this. In the meantime, thanks guys, for your input!!

http://www.rgvrrm.org/about/railroad/index.htm

This museum, which I know some members of this site may know better then I, says that they own the following

New York Central "Empire State Express" Coaches

Built 1941
#2566
#2567
#2568
#2571 "Hamilton Fish"
#2572 "David B. Hill
"Charles Whitman"
Mail-Baggage Car #5021 "Alonzo B. Cornell"

Checkout:

Wayner Publications; Robert J. Wayner
"Passenger Train Consists 1923-1973" re: pg 86

Maybe this will help y'all.

Rochester Chapter NRHS does indeed own several Budd-built cars that operated on the Empire State Express, and ran several years of successful excursions with them on the Ontario Midland Railroad. We are currently engaged in a program to reactivate them for excursion service once more.

The cars were purchased from Metro-North in 1987, and had been rebuilt by Amtrak in 1978. The large lounges have been replaced with much smaller toilets.

http://rgvrrm.org/about/railroad/index.htm

-otto-