NEW LEHIGH VALLEY BOOK DUE OUT, SOON!!!

I got mine, here: http://cgi.ebay.com/Lehigh-Valley-in-Co ... dZViewItem

The price is lower, than the retail price, and there are more available. Awesome!!!

I have followed most of the comment on several different LV lists
thus far on the new LV Vol. 4 from Morning Sun. I certainly cannot
disagree with some of the comments (caption errors, some pictures
possibly sub-quality for a book at this price level, etc.), and I
appreciate the folks that are knowledgeable enough to spot these and
provide clarification for the rest of us. However, after spending a
couple enjoyable evenings going over LV4, I would offer a couple
additional points for consideration. (And keep in mind that this comes
from a huge LV fan that owns virtually all of the LV books, and is
still always grateful to see anything new in print on the railroad that
many of us have such fond memories of!)

It's been 8 years since Morning Sun published LV Vol. 3. I for one am
grateful that Mr. Dakelman and Morning Sun finally published LV4. We
can nit-pic and bad-mouth this thing to death, and sales will likely
suffer for that, and I suspect that if that's the case, there will
likely be no Volume 5.

Price: Yup, this one has been beaten to death. At $60, it's not
cheap, but then again, what is today? I picked up my copy through an E-
Bay site for about $45....certainly reasonable as far as I'm concerned,
and not much more than I paid for LV3 8 years ago.

Pictures: The point has been made (correctly) that some of the
pictures have been published previously, or are readily available
elsewhere. On the other hand, I really enjoyed seeing the many pics in
LV4 that have NOT been published elsewhere, particularly those taken at
locations other than the typical ones that we're used to seeing. As
far as quality, in going through the Buffalo to New Jersey "action
photos" section, I thought that the quality was comparable to most of
the other picture books that I have, with possibly only one or two
exceptions.

Here's the bottom line on this (at least for me)...if you're interested
in 100% prototypical accuracy from the first-hand perspective of a guy
that was there and lived it, buy any of Mike Bednar's incredible LV
books, and you absolutely won't be disappointed. If you're a LV fan
that enjoys seeing photos of LV trains in action, I don't believe that
you'll be disappointed with LV 4 (hey, I'm as big a nit-picker as
anyone, and I certainly wasn't disappointed) .

I suspect that I may get roundly roasted for this position (and no, I'm
in no way affiliated with Morning Sun), but again, I'm always glad to
see something new on the LV, and am grateful to Morning Sun and
Mitchell Dakelman for producing Vol. 4.

As the old saying goes, "your opinion may differ"....
Doug Elder

Doug -

If I may, please allow me to respond to your post again, for the benefit of those who do not frequent the "other" LV forum, as there are some here who don't, and seeing as that I have already weighed in heavily on this topic here since it first started here.

I have my own reasons for not liking LV 4 (publisher and "author" alike), but I am not only glad that, A) You enjoyed your purchase, and that B) That there are others out there who apparently feel the same way I do. (mostly because now I know I'm not that crazy!)
Now before I get attacked of expressing my opinion, yes, I HAVE seen the book, and yes, one day, I MAY purchase it. There are pictures contained within this volume that I would like to have handy (or are just plain neat), but other than that, the book does nothing for me. The latest "online"review only solidifies my opinion.
Now, I also agree with the old adage that it's easy to hide behind a keyboard and pontificate away, and I am usually the first person to call somebody out on that, I'll freely admit to that! But in this case, when somebody says "If you think you can do a better job, then why don't you -Or keep your mouth shut!", I guess they have point, but not because I don't think I can't do a better job, but because I don't have the means to do so right now, and by gosh, I'm more than just a little bit lazy! I'll freely admit to that, too! LOL!
Point is, nobody is ever going to release a book about the LV (or CNJ, or O&Wect, ect) and make everyone happy. It just isn't going to happen, not when you cover a broad spectum of topics, no matter how small the railroad. However, if you specialize on a part of the railroad (Gangly Country Cousin, LV In The Finger Lakes), then you have the ability to cover the subject concisely, but at the risk of book sales (or distribution, or even lack of print quality due to finances), as you are only going to be targeting certain fans that are interested in that particular operation.
As it has been said, these factual errors contained in the captions could have been corrected in many ways, that are all obvious. As for the photographs, well, color saturation/shade/reproduction is one thing (I'm no expert, so as long as you don't print it in purple, I won't know any better!), and unless it was in another popular Morning Sun (or other) release, then I probably won't know you cheated there, either.
So, in the end, as you said, you will only get out of it what you want to. Sometimes it IS better to turn a blind eye and ignore the little things, but as I thoroughly believe, NOT when those inconsistantcies or errors end up becoming cannon for those who come after us. THEN, and only then, do we have a real problem.

Thanks for letting me mount the soapbox once again,

RH/CF

Having read this thing, cover to cover, about 4 times, I can say, it's worth the eBay price, I paid. There are some duplicate photos, and there is some info that is incorrect, regarding loco types, locations and painting details, but if you know the Valley, you spot these readily, and move on. The Eddystone Baldwin shot, was worth the price, for me. The rear dust jacket, another awesome shot. With condensed annual reports, from 1939 up to 1970 sprinkled throughout, and with a lot of color stuff of the FT's, steam and PA's, it's again worth the price of admission.
The format is interesting, as it takes you from east, to west, then returns to the east, via pictures, then text. Some nice shots of trains, on the east-end branchlines, is something not readily found anywhere else. Attempts at breaking down the roster, as units were acquired, and scrapping notes as well, also a departure, from other books about the Valley. If your blood is Cornell Red, it's money well spent, to get the book. There is some duplication, as I mentioned, but there's a lot of cool, unseen stuff, as well. <LV>

G-A....

I am glad to finally see a review about this book from somebody who is not only a bonafide fan, but also an ex-employee. With that being said, it's nice to see that Doug is not the only satisfied customer out there. I just wish I could "let go" of my "predujices", so to speak, and purchase the book, and have no regrets in letting go $45 or so of my hard earned dollars. Here's why......

As I had told Doug, I was very surprised to learn that it has been so many years in between the last two LV books. In fact, this one has been in the works for at least three years itself, which was about when I was approached to help submit content (alas, that did not happen). Is this because there is a lack of desire for books of pure LV content? I should hope not! I also agree with Doug, that it's always possible that if this one does not sell well due to "bad press", that there may not be sufficent desire by Morning Sun to produce another one (though if there is even ONE dollar to be made, rest assured, the MS will put together another one at a heartbeat). I agree, not every LV fan is as particular about getting the historical details spot on as I am, and probably doesn't care in a million years what is worded wrong or looks wrong. They don't know, and if they do know, it just doesn't matter to them. Bravo to those people who can just enjoy it for what it is, but to myself and I'm sure others, it matters. ALOT. It's interesting that you note that someone such as yourself was able to do just that, and you definately know better. I guess that maybe I might have to learn how to do it, too, if I am to enjoy the book. I'm sure the same discussions go on with PRR or B&O or SP fans when a new book comes out, we as LV fans aren't special in that regard, we are just "protecting" the legacy of "our" road, that's all, and some of us take it a little to the extreme I guess. Pretty strange coming from a 37 year old who never saw the LV turn a wheel, huh?

It is very unfortunate, but as I have been told by many who are in the hobby industry (and knowing two of MS's recent authors personally) that doing a book for MS is really nothing more than a vanity project for the "author", with MS pretty much getting every cent made. That's fine in and of itself, but it does history no service if the book is reproduced half-a$$ed, or to the public if the "author" has no real contol over the quality of the project, do you not agree?

In this regard, I think it is time for someone, and for some other publishers to step up and make a go of publishing a quality color (or mostly color) LV book. As I mentioned before, I think it is necessary to focus the subject matter to really do a good job. Picture books are fine and all, but a historical snapshot of a place or operation is, in my opinion, worth every cent I pay for it. As an aside, what about composing an
"in their own words" type of book, where the oral history of LV employees is recorded? I think (by virtue of Mike B's work), that a book like this, with pictures interspersed to help set the scene of a particular "story", would be of immense worth to the LV railfan/historian, don't you agree? Of course, as good as a book as it may be (take for instance Trice's or Marcham's LV offerings), these books in particular probably wouldn't have gotten published if they were done as "in color" books, or even mostly cover, REGARDLESS of weather or not the subject matter was in color or not (which we all know it isn't). The fact (and the problem, too) is of course, that color books are notoriously difficult to print correctly, and are very costly to produce. MS has the money to spend, and as we have seen here, doesn't exactly care to always reproduce it spot on, as it rightfully should be. I'd rather see a beautifly exposed B&W book (see above examples, or for you waterfront fans, Matteson's Tugboats Of New York), than a poorly exposed color book.

As I alluded in my last post, "home publishing" has certainly come into it's own in the last few years (see Bob Fischer's L&NE and CNJ books, or the offerings from Arcadia for examples), though again, nothing comes close to the quality of having a real publisher (Andover Jct, Johns Hopkins Univ, Fordham Univ.) do the "heavy lifting" when it comes to a professional publication. Of course, the flip side is that I am sure they won't just give Joe Nobody (ie: me) a publishing deal, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask, right?

Thanks again for listening to me once again ramble on and on,

CF

P.S. - It's OK if anyone wants to tell me to shut up and just buy the damn book!

Ex-employee? I'm still working........ I get all the books, the history books are great for details, the "picture" books great for the memories, and for modeling efforts. I still say you, Fred and Mike need to put out a strictly Valley Marine book, and I am thinking of a collection of period advertisements, and collectibles, even though the market for a book like this, is almost non-existant. One wonder, how much is left out there, that hasn't been seen yet? (besides my several hundred, last two years of color Alcos and Geeps) I got no towers, stations, bridges, roundhouses or any of that stuff. All locos. Seems kind of paltry now. Bednar had the right idea. Get the people, the trains were secondary. Fred did alright too. He had the foresight to get it all. Oh well. It's only money, and all the books will find a spot on my shelf, until there's nothing left to get. (hope that day doesn't come)

Hi guys....A bit of info regarding the new book, and a hypothetical question about another one.....

Some good news....Apparently according to the owner of the Model RR Shop here in Piscataway, NJ, the newest addition to the LV In Color series is doing quite well in sales, they have already sold out their first delivery of books since it's release.

With that being said, I also heard a rumour that MS is considering a LV Facilities book, to correspond with their popular Erie series. This book, if it comes to pass, probably won't see the light of day for a while, as the promised DL&W Facilities book isn't slated to be released until next year as it is, and it's been in the works since the beginning of this year from what I have been told. In other words, don't hold your breath!

OK, so my question is not would you buy a book like this (of course we all would!), but is it realistic to be covered in a "In Color" book? I know people like the Bednar brothers probably have a ton of photos of buildings and whatnot, but I also am pretty sure they would sooner do their own book thru Garrigues House, than deal with MS.

My point is, that a LOT of photos of the LV buildings are in B&W, and NOT color. In fact, I have a good amount in my own collection that I think deserve sharing, as I'm sure others here on the forum do, too. Some of these buildings just didn't survive to see the advent of regular color photography of railroad subjects. Therefore, I think that MS might not be the right people to do such a book. What do you guys think? This might be a good way for we, the fans, to join forces and produce a book, and I for one would be happy to be the front man on such an undertaking. What do you guys think? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this....

CF

Well, I got my comp copy today with a nice note from the author; he used one of the 4 slides I lent.

The book is nice, I've noticed a few obvious errors (Lockwood called Lockport in one caption; another calls what is actually a fairly rare '53 Chevy business coupe a '59 Chevy). But so far nothing real bad. It was nice to see some of the "Tracking the Apollos" shots in color for a change, too. I recognized some other shots from previous publishing, but looks like they were being used to illustrate specific things.


Now if we could just get David Monte Verde's 1976 cab ride shots published in color somewhere, along with some of his other slides.. those are about the only ones that seem to be "missing" from the rounds of color books. (I saw someone selling a dupe of FA1 546 in the tuscan scheme in Auburn, alone on a local, that should be in a book somewhere too).

Nice to hear some other positive comments on LV Volume 4....guess maybe I'm not alone in my opinion that it's a pretty decent book, despite some obvious errors.

lvrr325: I too would really love to see the David Monte Verde pics from his cab ride in '76 in color somewhere. (His "Last Fare from Sayre" article from 1983 remains one of my favorites...probably second only to "Tracking the Apollos".) However, I'll respectfully disagree regarding your comment on how most of the good pictures may already be in print somewhere....for example, I personally have seen several dozen slides recently that were taken by a gentleman in NJ of the Lehigh River gorge and elsewhere during the 60s and 70s that are spectacular, and yet I don't believe that he's had any of them published (at least not yet). I've got to believe that there's still quite a bit of good unpublished stuff out there; like many other things, it's just a matter of finding the guys and convincing them that their work is worthy of publication. (That said, I'm still wondering who might be hoarding that vast stash of LV photos from around central NY in the 70s that I'd love to see.....for example, I still have never seen any pictures from the mid 60s of the weekly LV local trains on the Geneva to Trumansburg branch line that was originally the old passenger main....wish I'd had a camera while growing up in T-burg around that time!)
Doug Elder

Those are the only ones that I know exist, out there, that have not appeared anywhere. I know others exist - I once chatted with someone who told me he had buried in the box in a closet somewhere, shots of the last run to Aurora. I think he had a chase of the Rochester branch local, too. Who knows how the quality is, but I was getting good shots on K64 in 1992 with a 1950's era Kodak camera that didn't even have a removable lens, most of the time, if the guy took a whole roll of that train there has to be at least a couple publishable shots.

DMV told me he wants to publish his own book one of these days. Look for it when he retires from GVT, I suppose. A lot of his slides, duplicates are floating around out there which you can buy.


I'd like to find a series of slides depicting the EC&N between Freeville and Canastota - I've seen some 126 prints that Lymon Grey (probably spelled that wrong) displayed with his lantern, pass and key collection, taken by a gentleman who worked in Canastota. I'd also like to see the LO&NY in Dryden and north to Moravia/circa 1966 end of track.

There may be a series of slides of the EC&N Cortland-Canastota in the slides of a man who's name I don't remember who tried to get part of that line for a tourist line in about 1967. One CNY Chapter member meeting they had a tray of slides that were supposed to be shots of this line taken as part of his involvement in the mid-60s to start it up, but no one had previewed it ahead of time. It turned out to have a lot of Colorado narrow gauge, Edaville and other stuff after the first couple LV shots. Al Kallfelz tells me he has slides taken of this line about 1967, also. (Beers rings a bell for the name; might be the same who was involved in the OMID in Wayne County getting put together).

For that matter, how about shots of Penn Central or early Conrail running on the LV in Canastota? I've seen (and plan to borrow and copy) a NYC version of a track zone map, updated to about 1970, showing they were operating from the interchange to a couple of customers here. So far I have not been able to find out how long that lasted.

I'm sure something is out there, but who knows what.

In this digital age, too, I would think even so-so or old print photos could be scanned, cleaned up, and included in a book. There's a couple grainy shots in the new LV book that may well have come from prints.

Since we're asking questions...

I've got a pile of slides (mostly Kodachromes taken with Nikons), a good portion of which are of publishing quality. A lesser portion are OK but could be made better with today's technology.

Any opinion as to where the next LV book will be coming from? Morning Sun?

Any good or bad experiences with publishers? It's going to be hard to let go of original slides, even if there is a promise of return.

8222 -

I wouldn't expect another LV Morning Sun book anytime soon, considering the gap of time between the last book and this one (about 7 years).
If anything, in two years we MIGHT be lucky to see an LV Facilities book, but I am not holding my breath. I think a new B&W, maybe with some color release from a smaller publisher (Andover Pub, or a historical society) is a better bet.

Regarding slides - Morning Sun is known for not only destroying slides, but also not retuning them prompty, if at all. There are pictures in the first two books from a friend that came back runined, and this prolific photographer's photos will never be in another MS LV book because of it.

Like a lot of us, we have things in our collections that deserve to be published for the greater "good", but I think my above suggested publishing outlets are a better suggestion than what the hobby industry insiders here in New Jersey refer to as the "Book Of The Month Club".

CF

Color slides must be removed from the mounts in order to be reproduced for publication in a book or other printed matter. This basically destroys the origional mounts. Slide film can be damaged during the reproduction process, as well. Anyone thinking about loaning a publisher one-of-a-kind irreplaceable color slides should be aware of these facts. Many photographers are and this may be a factor in their reluctance to loan such slides for publication. Count me as one, this from experience, alas.

TB Diamond wrote:Color slides must be removed from the mounts in order to be reproduced for publication in a book or other printed matter. This basically destroys the origional mounts. Slide film can be damaged during the reproduction process, as well. Anyone thinking about loaning a publisher one-of-a-kind irreplaceable color slides should be aware of these facts. Many photographers are and this may be a factor in their reluctance to loan such slides for publication. Count me as one, this from experience, alas.

Why must they be removed from their mount? There are high quality scanners on the market that can produce a great scan without removal from the mount.

I know that removing the mount will allow the film to scan perfectly flat for the best overall sharpness, but at the cost of possibly destroying the slide? Sounds counter-productive to me.

As I said, with the right equipment and techniques, you CAN produce a very publishable print. No need to butcher the original slide. And we wonder why we don't see more rare published photos.

I would say, what's the point of having a "super-awesome" shot of four C-628's, belching thick black smoke, roaring out of Charmin, if nobody ever sees it, but the owner, and then, maybe only occasionaly? There are ways to dupe a slide, and if it's done at a reputable facility, the dupe could be loaned, or given, towards a project. I'm going to swap copies, and/or prints from my collection, with anyone else, who will do the same, with theirs. I prefer prints, for ease in viewing, but slides were cheaper back then. (maybe now, as well?) Gotta have lots of full color shots, to duplicate the roster, in HO, unit for unit........