• Hoboken-Binghamton trip—problems

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by Idiot Railfan
 
Joe G. raises an interesting point about the numbers of younger railfans seeming to be in decline. I hadn't thought of that, but now that he mentions it, I think he is right.

I think there could be several reasons for this, the biggest being that railroads simply aren't as accessible as they once were.

When I was a kid inn the early 1970s, there were still six or seven major railroads within a few miles of my house. Each of them had one or more major through frieght routes, plus countless local freights. Most of those locals had crews of four or more and had cabooses. They usually ran on regular schedules and stopped for lunch in the same place where kids such as myself could get to know the crews and often be invited aboard the trains (even getting a ride from time to time!)

Most train stations had agents, most of whom were happy to chat with kids about trains. I rarely left a train station without an armload of souvenirs. (timetables, rubber stamps, calendars, etc.)

Going back before my time, most travel was by train. It was rare to find anybody who grew up before the 1960s who had not travelled extensively by train. Railroads in those days of intense competition for the passenger dollar deliberately had character ("The Route of Phoebe Snow," "The Standard Railroad of the World," even "The Suzy Q."). Railroad presidents were as well-known as sports stars. Railroads seemed to be much friendlier and approachable.

Contrast that with today. Many of the railroads I knew as a kid are abandoned or removed. The few consolidated routes are plastered with "no trespassing" signs. Instead of many railroads with rich histories, there are only four major railroads across the entire country. Most local freights ceased to exist, and those that remain often run at night and are under much stricter time rules. ("No time to talk, kid.") Even rolling stock no longer has colorful logos and company slogans. Most new cars simply have reporting marks and numbers.

Station agents are a thing of the past, replaced by robotic vending machines. On many transit systems, even conductors are becoming a relic, replaced by machine-validated tickets checked only occassionally.

Aside from commuters, many adults and most kids I know have never been on a train. Most travel by car and plane. With no passengers to attract, and most freight customers having only one railroad to choose from, image-making is rarely a component of rail marketing today.

Conrail to me still seems to be a relatively recent event. I have to remind myself that even a 28-year-old railfan never saw the Erie Lackawanna or the Lehigh Valley in person. No wonder the Reading and Lehigh & Hudson resonate with a 15-year-old about the same as The BeeGees or the Eagles.

With consolidation, high-tech operations, and fewer human faces, the corporate behemoths these days more resemble public utilties rather than elegant transportation. And they elicit about the same level of excitement. That's not to say it's right or wrong; railroads have always been in business to make a profit. But the days of "The Friendly Service Route" are probably behind us, and few 12-year-olds know the name of a train engineer or their local station agent.

  by BlockLine_4111
 
I give up on giving advise and alternate propositions. I've come to the conclusion "do i really care if the trip runs or not ?" I won't be here to see or ride it anyway. :wink:
  by DonPevsner
 
For the record:

(1)I was prepared from the outset to donate my legal time and just
break-even.

(2)There turned-out to be NO WAY that I would have reached this
point, which would have required over 460 passengers @ $185 each.
AMTRAK was charging $89,400 for the train's 630 total miles,
including deadheading the consist from PHL to Hoboken and back.
It looks as if most railfans were just too cheap.

(3)Alternate routes were rejected as "too many crews" and much too
costly. FYI, my original plan was:

(a)NJT and NS Washington Secondary Hoboken-Phillipsburg.
(b)NS Lehigh Line Phillipsburg-Allentown.
(c) NS former LVRR/CNJ main line Allentown-Pittston.
(d)R&N Pittston-Mehoopany.
(e)NS Mehoopany-Waverly.
(f)Waverly-Binghamton NS. (overnight)
(g)NS (former Erie) return Binghamton-Hoboken.

(4)Also, AMTRAK would not let its consist out overnight.

(5)The trip would have been in daylight all the way from Hoboken to
Binghamton; plus as far as Port Jervis on the way back.

(6)Too bad only a NYS&W freight car can see the former Erie Delaware
Division. It would have been fun.

  by njt4172
 
Don,

In order for this trip to gain the attention YOU WANT, it would have to be marketed and advertised throughout the whole United States and Canada. NOT JUST THE NORTHEAST.

And some railfans aren't cheap—it is just that they didn't want to pay such a high amount for that kind of trip. Don't you realize that $180.00 isn't affordable for people who pay 10-15 bills per month just for living? It is taking quite a gamble for most.

I wouldn't give up on future trips!

Steve

  by GandyDancer
 
Could it be that railfans who ride commuter trains and Amtrak regularly were just experiencing "sticker shock" when faced with taking a trip that was, for the most part, not price-subsidized by state and federal governments?

If we assume that the expenses to be charged to Mr. Pevsner by the various railroads were "at cost" then maybe what we were seeing was the real cost of operating a passenger consist on this route.

Pretty depressing. I was looking forward to the ride.

  by BlockLine_4111
 
I am not sure if Don and Steve followed my latest proposition.

Truncate the trip at Scranton's Steamtown with a CPR crew taking the train from Hunter/Aldene right to Steamtown. IIRC CPR crews are qualified from Oak Island/Hunter/Aldene to Scranton. Forget about going to Binghamton or using the Washington Sec/B&P idea I tossed around.

Careful, tight sequencing and prioritization of the schedule with AMT/NJT/CSX/NS/RN/CPR would be required to "make her fly". Maybe this alone would be too much to deal with.

  by DutchRailnut
 
Steamtown or CPR crews are not officialy qualified on NJT equipment and cabcars.
Besides the Union would want a NJT on NJT Train or Amtrak crew on Amtrak train on entire move since that would be part of labor agreement/ and the railroad would want their crew to be responcible for their 20 million $$ investment. an overnight stay would be out of question since inspection by QMP inspectors is mandatory, this would only add a few thousand $$ to trip.
Last edited by DutchRailnut on Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by BlockLine_4111
 
DutchRailnut wrote:Steamtown or CPR crews are not officialy qualified on NJT equipment and cabcars.
Besides the Union would want a NJT on NJT Train or Amtrak crew on Amtrak train on entire move since that would be part of labor agreement/ and the railroad would want their crew to be responcible for their 20 million $$ investment. an overnight stay would be out of question since inspection by QMP inspectors is mandatory, this would only add a few thousand $$ to trip.
This would have also been the case with Bingo trip as formally proposed. So what's your point ? Am I missing something ? Please clarify.
  by JA
 
Don Pevsner wrote:(2)There turned-out to be NO WAY that I would have reached this
point, which would have required over 460 passengers @ $185 each.
AMTRAK was charging $89,400 for the train's 630 total miles,
including deadheading the consist from PHL to Hoboken and back.
It looks as if most railfans were just too cheap.
Ouch. I think that is a harsh thing to say. $185 is not something that one should blow their nose at. Your break-even involved too many people. I tried to plan a trip to Cape Cod directly from Penn Station and found out why the Cape Codder died a horrible death. :(

I'm sure you'll find something that can break even with fewer people. However, I don't think that you should lash out at railfans in general. You must know your market and target them and targeting does include price and break-even. Good luck with your future efforts.

  by Idiot Railfan
 
Had any inquiries been made to New Jersey Transit regarding equipment? I know it may not be as comfortable as Amfleet equipment, but for the right price I'd sit in a beach chair in a box car (open door, of course). The 1983 Tri-State trip was run with NJT Comet Is, albiet before they were converted from 2-2 seating.
  by Lackawanna484
 
JA wrote:However, I don't think that you should lash out at railfans in general. You must know your market and target them and targeting does include price and break-even. Good luck with your future efforts.
------------------

It's very tough to put on a trip of any kind, and I admire anybody who's wiling to make the effort.

One big problem with this kind of trip is the freeloader effect. Not just the folks who don't buy tickets, but the helicopters, etc. When the 4449 trip ran in Oregon a few years ago, THREE competing helicopters all tried to get post position for the great shots. They ended up ruining it for people on the ground, for paying passengers, and for the organizers. That's because the "official" chopper didn't get enough good, exclusive footage. Even people taping from the baggage car complained about the nearly level choppers and their noise. Two of the chopper companies didn't contribute a dime toward the operation of the trip. Not a dime!

Almost seventy thou for Amtrak, another ten thou for insurance, another coupla thou for two crews, NJT and NS management, and the numbers add up pretty quick...

  by JoeG
 
I salute Mr. Pevsner for organizing the trip. It's a very difficult, time consuming activity. He is now understandably mad that he couldn't sell enough tickets, and that his work turned out to be for naught. He's made a couple of bitter comments, but still--he stepped up and actually organized a trip. Some of the posts on this thread, proposing other possible trips that might have sold better, strike me as nothing but needles directed to Mr. Pevsner. Turns out, he tried to do some of what these posters suggested but couldn't get the trips approved.
I'd love it if some of the posters with alternate trip ideas would actually try to organize a trip. I'd even contribute some time to the effort. Anyone who wishes to try, can email me. My email address is in my profile.

  by dtravisjr
 
I too would like to thank Mr. Pevsner for at least trying to organize a trip. I was looking forward to purchasing a couple of the Bingo-Port tickets. Im sure this experience has soured Mr. Pevsner from scheduling any more trips in the future but if I may offer some suggestions in the very, very rare event another fan trip like this takes place again. How about just a Port Jervis-Bingo roundtrip? Thats really the rare mileage anyway. Leave Port about 8 in the morning on a Saturday, get up here to Bingo around 1 or so (figuring 25MPH running at 127 rail miles or so between Bingo and PJ). An hour lunch and be back to Port by 7 or 8. Maybe using NYSW T&HS(werent they suppose to get 9 or so SPV-2000's or whatever they're called?) and/or CNYNRHS equipment. Then again, I dont know the whole implications of insurance and whatnot. Again, just a suggestion. I've never tried to put on a trip as Im only 20 and I dont have the money! I respect those that have and even though Im doubtful, maybe this could be tried again in my lifetime.

Dave Travis