New Erie Lackawanna organization

Fascinating! In an earlier post you mentioned you found out about the group from a flyer you got at a train show and got the RAILROAD.NET site link from their website. Now we are hearing you have known the guy doing the webpage for many years.

Gosh, I think I "get it" now!

Isn't it interesting that some folks "talking up" this group on RAILROAD.NET joined this forum so recently! I have noticed exactly the same situation on some other discussion sites where information on ELH&TS has been posted.

Why, It must be a coincidence.

I think you are still looking for conspiracies where none exist. The guy who does the web site is also a member of the EL mailing list. He's listed on the ELH&TS Contacts page. In case you missed it, I was on that mailing list for years. He also happens to be the guy who does (did?) the ELHS’ web site. I’m an ELHS member too, in case you missed that as well.

I’ll say again what I said before, rather than spread a lot of false information, why don’t you ask him yourself and get the facts?

JD

498,
You obviously have an axe to grind with the ELH&TS. Your first post could arguably be well intentioned, but since you have been informed of the facts and still bad mouth the organization, you have presented yourself in a very bad light.
As dlw1137 said, if you have a problem with the list, e-mail the webmaster. Otherwise, what concern is it of yours?
I am an ELHS member and will continue to be so. I also plan on becoming an ELH&TS member as well. If you don't like one or either organization, fine, but there is no need to slander the ELH&TS on a public forum.

For many of us, the ELHS doesn't provide what we are looking for. Aside from the lack of democracy, the organization generally shuns the DL&W.

I think a little competition is healthy, even in the world of non-profits. The Southern Railway Historical Society was very unresponsive to its members. A new group, the SR Historical Association was formed. About 5 years later the SRHS merged into the SRHA. Sometimes change is impossible from within.

I find it interesting that 498 has such a problem with this Society. It is a free world, join or don't.

The promotion effort is so transparent that it is amusing!

I agree, this is an amusing thread.

I answered your original post, and I assure you I have no ties to ELH&TS, I just wanted to reassure you that members on that list knew their information was out there on the web. I didn't know of ELH&TS's existence until this topic was posted here.

What I find amusing is that you have given this thread legs and gotten it more attention than it ever would have received languishing in obscurity!

What I find most amusing is Mr. 498 hides behind a handle to make his inquisitorial comments in the best medieval tradition. Maybe if he were willing to identify his comments with the individual, we would all give more credence to his remarks. I won’t hold my breath.

I agree with Mr. Smith, you have given this thread more life than it could have possibly hoped for. I was not associated with nor did I know about the ELH&TS until finding out about it last weekend at the train show. Now that I have, I am enthusiastic about joining.

Mr. 498, maybe you should inquire with the ELH&TS to see if they might be interested in appointing you as their marketing director. You certainly seem to have given them considerable “press”. On second thought, maybe it’s better if you don't become affiliated with them.

Time to move on to expose the next grand conspiracy I suppose? I hear the Erie is being resurrected and plans to take over commuter operations from NJT on its former lines in New Jersey and buy its former mainline from Port Jervis to Binghamton. You might want use those amazing investigative abilities to get to the bottom of that one.

Did you ever bother to inquire with them directly or are you simply satisfied with your version of the "truth"?

James Denison

dlw1137 wrote:You still don't get it I guess, maybe because you never saw it before. I don't think any information changed hands, became property of anyone it wasn't already or was absconded with near as I can tell.
JD

Obviously I don't get it, on several fronts.

First, the ELHS owns (or should own) the contents of the mailing list. As far as I recall, we provided info for this list under the auspices of the ELHS, and while this was before the days of ELHS's web site, it stands to reason the members (such as myself) who provided contact info would presume this was intended for the ELHS membership, et. al.. Now that I see there is no privacy policy on the ELHS website, but there is a copyright, and the ELHS and ELH&TS webmasters are the same person, maybe he owns the mailing list, not the ELHS. But there definitely is an implied association here.

Second, and more importantly, I'm still trying to better understand the overall purpose of the ELH&TS, compared to the ELHS. The websites are virtually identical, probably no surprise here as I said the webmaster is the same person. But again if the ELHS copyrights the material, and the ELH&TS is pretty much a copy, that does not appear appropriate. I also find it curious that the "Links" under the ELH&TS web site does not contain a link to the ELHS site (http://www.erielackhs.org).

I now notice that a number of folks associated with the ELH&TS (under the "Contact Info") were also the primary authors & co-sponsoring members in the ELHS that submited a proposal to the ELHS Board of Directors about its structure & election procedures, included in the ELHS "The Diamond", Vol. 18, Extra Board August 2004.

Now I don't want to jump to conclusions about any conspiracy theory that we have a fractioning of a portion of the ELHS that wants to run things their own way in forming the ELH&TS, but again I fail to see the rationale & purpose, other than to have their own organization, for what ever purpose. Its not clear to me whether the ELH&TS is intended to compliment, and not replace, the ELHS.

Personally, I have enjoyed being a member of the ELHS. I find the quarterly "The Diamond" publication to be first class, and very interesting. I also did not see the purpose or need to change the way the ELHS Board operates, but maybe there is more behind the scenes than everyone knows, so I don't understand the motivation behind this group of folks who now appear to be the driving force behind the ELH&TS.

That said, I would always welcome a new & fresh approach to Erie, EL, and DL&W pasts -- I want to give this a chance, but it would be beneficial to know what everyone thinks & where each group is headed, in everyone's opinion. I would appreciate getting more of this out in the open, at the risk of possibly opening up old wounds.

After all, isn't that one of the reasons we have this forum?


Pat C.
ELHS member 2094

Pat, et. al.,

I was told there was an interesting exchange taking place in this forum and I see I was not misled. I appreciate your comments and I am sure you are not the only one with similar questions, I will do my best to clear up some of the points you bring up.

First of all the Erie Lackawanna mailing list never was and still is not affiliated with the ELHS. In fact more people on that list are not ELHS members than are. Many people seem to have this misconception so you are hardly alone. The EL Mailing List is open to anyone; ELHS members, ELH&TS members, members of both or none of the above. This is how it has always been and how it remains. The list member contact information page has always been there, it has always been public and that remains unchanged as well. No one has hijacked information, no one is using it to contact individuals to try and recruit them to join the ELH&TS, we prefer to do that by offering value and letting people make their own decision.

Now about the web site, yes the designs are similar since I created both of them. They are similar to thousands of other web sites and do share a similar color scheme. That is difficult to avoid since we cannot change history to alter the corporate colors of the DL&W, EL and Erie. I admit being primarily a DL&W fan I am mighty partial to GMY although black and yellow has its attraction too, but copyright infringement? That covers content, not design. It’s my design and even there the ELHS site is a derivative work of other sites I have done. I like clean, easy to navigate sites and people seem to find a simple layout such as this beneficial. There are significant, although probably not readily apparent differences between the two site designs though. The ELHS does not possess the EL, DL&W or Erie heralds or color schemes any more than any other web site or say a Morning Sun or some other book which includes them.

Why did we form the ELH&TS? Rather than go into lengthy explanations here, I refer you to the ELH&TS web site “About” page easily accessible from the main menu (www.elhts.org). In a nutshell though, the ELH&TS’ goal is threefold; reach out to a younger generation of fan and potential fan, encourage more active member involvement and sharing of information and develop an on line resource through a digital archive valuable to members for research and accessible from anywhere in the world.

Something else, we are enthusiastic about and willing to devote much greater space to modeling the railroads. Most of us are modelers to one degree or another, and many of us are prototype modelers. Researching a model makes for an unwitting historian. Why not share the research with others through a modeling article? We are not constrained by a fixed number of pages per issue and members aren’t going to complain about our wasting precious print space. Being web based, we can devote as much or as little space as would be appropriate without such consideration.

Non prototype modelers are equally welcome. If you have modeled an SD70MAC in EL, Erie or DL&W or are a tinplate modeler, hey we’d be happy to have you submit an article about that too. Just because we are a “Historical Society” doesn’t mean we cannot explore fun “what ifs”. Many people actually give a great deal of thought into projecting these railroads into the future; it can be a fun exercise. Heck, IHC does it all the time without much thought! One of my favorites has to be the C-415 in EL colors.

So wasn’t the ELHS already doing all of this? The ELHS is a fine, long established, mature organization, but longevity can have its pluses and minuses. Sometimes enthusiasm and embracing new ideas can become increasingly difficult. Even large portions of the membership become entrenched in their relationship with the society itself. Many of us felt we were not effectively reaching out to the people who will have to carry the history of the railroads forward after us. As fine a publication as the Diamond is, the new generation is not tied to a printed publication the way we were. The web opens up a new means of reaching people on a scale not possible with a printed magazine.

Another aspect we perceived is an increasing dependency on a few to provide content to the rest of the members. In the first month of the ELH&TS’ existence, I have had more offers for contributed material; articles, pictures, slides, etc., than all of my appeals over a two year period for material for the ELHS web site ever generated by a large margin. I cannot tell you how gratifying that is. Information shouldn’t be horded, it should be shared. It benefits us all. One of our cornerstones is to encourage an active, participatory membership. Participation can take many forms not only articles, images and materials, but also running the society and whether they choose to exercise it or not, a right to vote for who runs the society.

Pat, there are no wounds to open, we believe we have an idea for a new way to approach the future of a rail historical society and did not see that approach being attempted in a timely manner within the current organization. Are we competing against the ELHS? I don’t believe any of us involved feel that way. We have many members (including myself of course) who are also ELHS members and will remain so. Our membership also includes people who are former members and left for whatever reason and still others who have never been ELHS members. Our dues are less than many people spend for lunch at MacDonald’s so if they want to join and be a member of both organizations, it won’t need to be an either/or decision. The low dues is another advantage of being web based, most of your ELHS dues goes to providing you with a printed publication. Printed magazines are a significant expense.

I apologize to all for the length of the reply. I could go on believe me. Some people have obviously already formed an opinion about the ELH&TS. To those I say keep an open mind and we will see if we cannot change your perception. To others who are interested in joining us in this undertaking, you will be warmly welcomed. Ultimately the success or failure of the ELH&TS will depend on its members and their participating in the Society. I believe the current members of the ELH&TS are dedicated to doing whatever they can to make it a success. The level of enthusiasm among our members has been very gratifying and refreshing.

Regards,

Will Shultz

The lower cost of publishing on the web compared with traditional printing also makes it feasible for anyone who feels their interests are not being served by the two existing Erie Lackawanna groups to start yet another group or two. Eventually there might even be enough space available to satisfy the Lackawanna enthusiasts who have felt ignored for all these years, and the fans of the west end of the Erie, which doesn't get much coverage either.

Regarding the Lackawanna, does anyone from the Scranton area know the fate of the DL&W Mechanical Department drawing files which were kept there? They were stored at the shop for some years following the merger then were moved to a storage room in the boiler house by the early 1970s. There were erecting drawings for many classes of steam power, manufacturers packets including paint and styling for the various diesels, lettering diagrams for freight equipment, and master templates for lettering in various styles and sizes. I don't think they were destroyed, I believe most were given away. Some of them may still be around the Scranton area.

Mr. (Ms., Miss, Mrs?) 498,

You are correct; anyone who feels their interests aren't being served could start another society or group. They can build it for free if they like, but we charge dues because we are going to have to support a large web presence and a large amount of server space and that all costs real dollars. In return we feel we will be providing our members with a significant value. Unless a wealthy benefactor wishes to subsidize our efforts without conditions (you can contact me privately if you’re out there), member financial support is essential. I believe most would agree a basic membership in the ELH&TS is a bargain.

We are a registered nonprofit and starting one involves a reasonable outlay of funds for filing all of the paperwork, etc., so it isn’t like we decided one day to simply start a “society”. Real effort went into its formation and what that guarantees to our members and potential members is any assets we have will have to me handled in a way which meets the requirements of the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania where we are incorporated. This assures members they are becoming involved in an organization which actually exists and is subject to being accountable under the Commonwealth’s laws for nonprofits.

I read one post which says in effect, “well you can already get everything you want about the EL for free” and another stating free yes, but factual...not necessarily. The information we publish will be of the highest quality we can attain. Where applicable that includes verifiable, well researched information, not loose “facts”. Our standards for publishing will be as high as any “regular” historical society publication, in some cases, arguably much better.

Back to the “free” issue, ask George Elwood if providing information on the web is free. George has gone to great personal expense to provide what he has and what so many use. Now he is asking others to help defer the costs involved which is a very reasonable request, server space and bandwidth are not given away by most ISPs, yet as many people as use George’s site, he struggles to get people to contribute to support it. It is a very real possibility if people don’t support his site financially, it will not be there some day. We would rather not find ourselves in a similar situation. So again, there is no free, someone has to pay for it and the more useful a site the more likely it will be it will need support.

To your other point, we hope people won’t find a need to feel as though their interests are not being served. We are making an extra effort to cover all of the areas which have been less well covered. The Erie/EL west end is particularly high on the list as is the Lackawanna, especially the Lackawanna west of Binghamton. Both seem for various reasons, mostly population density or an overwhelming richness of railroads competing for attention, to have been largely ignored. We’ll see if we can’t do something to correct that situation. I personally have a great interest in the Lackawanna’s B&P, upstate New York branches and western half of its mainline which is were I concentrate my research. We already have several members who are former Erie/EL west end employees who have agreed to do articles for the web site. I look forward to reading them myself.

One last comment about the mechanical department drawings...you might want to start another topic on that one, but I’ll tell you what I know. Most of the drawings ended up in the landfill when Conrail cleaned out the Scranton offices. A former Conrail, (nee EL) employee in the Scranton area found out about it and has or had a basement full of material. I hear he has been selling it off over the years, but this comes second hand. He was the only one to my knowledge who saved any of it. There may have been others though I am not aware of them. Steamtown may have ended up with some as well, you might want to contact Pat McKnight, the historian at Steamtown if you are interested.

Once again, please accept my apology for the length of my reply.

Regards,

Will Shultz

The Erie Lackawanna Historical Society is not going to disappear for principally one reason.

It is simply content. No other organization has the documents and
collections of the ELHS and that will ensure their viability.

The Erie Lackawanna Historical and Technical Society may fill a niche
on attracting new people to the fold. They may very well find a niche
with computer oriented people and do just fine. I can't imagine that the ELHS people are happy about this development but I don't see ELHTS as a major threat to that organization. ELHS has to good an archives for modeler's and researchers to bail on ELHS.

Hello Listfolks,

Very interesting thread on this whole topic indeed.. But from a 30 year old, who wasn't "there", nor did I work for the company, I too, as a fan, have an interest, as well as an opinion...

I actually have had the honor to meet Will once at one of the Conventions and before the ELH&TS was born, was supposed to help him (and a couple others) on the ELHS website development committee (Remeber those days Will???)

I can see why the ELH&TS was born.. I was only a ELHS member for one year, and decided not to renew for many reasons.. In a nutshell? Simple, in my opinion, the way the society is run, was being run with the same mentality that the actually company was being run back in the day. In fact, if I recal correctly, a couple of the board members are former EL.

The society was stagnant. Officials were "appointed" by those already on the board, not voted on by the society. Surely a case of who kisses whose hind quarters. Will and the rest of us tried in vain to get the ELHS website going, but society management seemed to drag their heels at every turn, almost as if an attempt was made to make it fail before it even got off the ground.

Then of course there was the EL mailing list. Although not related to the society directly, occasional society related issues would be pushed over the mail list. I remember a coup on the list when I was on it, in an attempt to get the ELHS membership to overthrow the board by way of alot of P'Oed members. Didn't work.. Not enough people gave a damned, plus the list moderator put an end to it rather quickly... (As long as I get my issue of the Diamond, who cares whose watching the general store..)

I also recall on the list that there were two factions of people... Those who groomed each others egos, and who got more than all their questions answered, and the rest of us who wouldn't pucker lips, and may perhaps get a question answered from time to time.. This kind of attitude dosen't help attract people to a railroad that is history, especially when all the old hands are dying off, and fresh new blood like me, still has Playstation 3 and X-Box 360 beckoning to us all the time...

Trains? Hah! Kids stuff... LOL...

I have no experiance with the ELH&TS, so I cannot comment on that group. I am sure that if Will is running the group, the intentions are good hearted, as my experiance working with him in the past, has shown his dedication to the preservation of the company's history, sans all the erroneous Bull....

My interest in the EL went Flat, right after the List Moderator and I exchanged emails about the double standard, and how I thought it was (and still is) ethically wrong to maintain such standards.

Have I gave up on the EL (and DL&W)? No, I just work with a small handful of people (less than 5) and participate on a couple of lesser known, and less busy email lists.

Also, I found a much better group of people to associate with. Unlike many associated with the EL, the CNJ guys are a blast. They accept everyone who has a legitimate interest in the company. I cannot tell of how much stuff I have gotten from those guys, sometimes without even asking for it (Here kid, keep this for me when I pass on, hehehe)

Hell, even my oldest daughter was sent a CNJ windbreaker because that person was "cleaning out their closet". She wears it to school on occasion.

And the stories that these guys tell, would make one hell of a soap opera, or atleast, an #1 seller on the NYTimes list.. Something to rival Hot Times on the High Iron, no doubt.... (Sorry Tuch)

The only complaint with the CNJ is that their historical society dosen't have a website, but I am hoping to change that soon. (I have certain personal affairs to attend too first.)

Finally, unlike some people who hide behind their handles, make sure you address all hate mail to me

Joseph D. Fisher
c/o jdfx05_at_aol.com

In the words of the great Bill O'Reilly
"Name and Town, Name and Town, Name and Town please, if you would like to Opine."

and the fans of the west end of the Erie, which doesn't get much coverage either.

Count me in.

I unfortunately do not see any easy answer to the problem of satisfying all the interests present in historical societies that deal with fallen flag railroads, including Erie Lackawanna. There are more and more fans who grew up in the post Erie-Lackawanna era and whose interests are centered around Conrail, meanwhile the folks who had first hand management and operating experience with the railroad are steadily passing away. As the clock continues to run the center of interest will shift away from history of the railroad and more towards model railroading as it has done in many other fallen flag groups. And while there is still a lot of unpublished "source" material around, the pool of good writers and researchers who have the time and talent to pull it all together and present it coherently is very limited. The lasting contribution will be what gets published, preserved in the various groups archives, or passed on to the collections of reputable museums for future generations to see.