Congressman supports effort to get rail answers (Re: Cutoff)

sullivan1985 wrote:Even though we will never see these mysterious 2 mile long heavy intermodal freight trains these NIMBY's are so worried about on the cutoff, I have a simple querstion. Could a real freight train even fit through Summit? I think not without tearing the wires down and scraping along side the platform. There's not even a chance at Dover for clearance.

Plus, even if Dover wasn't in the way, the old Boonton Line is in no condition to run heavy freight like the EL did back in the day. Both of those bridges would need to be replaced along with most of the track on the abandoned portion to begin with.

The only Real freight train I can see that wouldnt tear down the wires, bridges, platforms would probably have to be an empty coal train with GP40-2 as power..... How about the H0-2 when they got to Reheis?? They use box cars as spacers... How close to the top of those cars clear the catenary??

Irish Chieftain wrote:Successful is defined as standing on your own and fending off the competition. Selling out is not success.

I disagree. Selling out can be very successful and some entrepreneurs start businesses just to sell them later at an enormous profit. In this circumstance, NS and CSX took the opportunity to buy a competitor. Conrail took the opportunity to take their money.

njt4172 wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:Even though we will never see these mysterious 2 mile long heavy intermodal freight trains these NIMBY's are so worried about on the cutoff, I have a simple querstion. Could a real freight train even fit through Summit? I think not without tearing the wires down and scraping along side the platform. There's not even a chance at Dover for clearance.

Plus, even if Dover wasn't in the way, the old Boonton Line is in no condition to run heavy freight like the EL did back in the day. Both of those bridges would need to be replaced along with most of the track on the abandoned portion to begin with.

The only Real freight train I can see that wouldnt tear down the wires, bridges, platforms would probably have to be an empty coal train with GP40-2 as power..... How about the H0-2 when they got to Reheis?? They use box cars as spacers... How close to the top of those cars clear the catenary??

Whenver they go down to Reheis, they make sure the train has enough clearance. The wires are pretty low in Summit, so they naturally want to make sure they can go down there without running into any problems.

JA wrote:

Irish Chieftain wrote:Successful is defined as standing on your own and fending off the competition. Selling out is not success.

I disagree. Selling out can be very successful and some entrepreneurs start businesses just to sell them later at an enormous profit. In this circumstance, NS and CSX took the opportunity to buy a competitor. Conrail took the opportunity to take their money.

I repeat: Selling out is not success. Takeovers squelch competition and foment monopolies, which is a clear violation of antitrust laws and results in rate abuse. Cutting business and assets is never, ever success, because success is defined as assets growing as opposed to shrinking.

I refer again to my comparison of what the state of the highways would be if trucking firms owned them...

I think its safe to say that if hte cut off were to be rebuilt, and there was a decent opportuntiy for a through freight service, that teh lower Boonton Line would be rebuilt. it wouldn't cost THAT much "relatively speaking" to rebuild the line, compared ot the hundreds of millions for the cutoff.

the clearance with the platform in dover could be fixed easily, probably with a guantlet track. That wire between there and Denville shoudln't be a problem, it was there under the EL and DLW. Maybe the newest and tallest cars adn double stacks wouldn't fit, but they would manage. The new wire at Great Notch east might be a problem for taller stuff too, but shouldn't be THAT bad.....

I just don't get how people would rather have hundreds of thousands of trucks running up and down interstates, state, county and local roads instead of on trains? Would they rather a truck every 15 seconds with a jake brake pounding away or a train once or twice a day???????

The people adjacent to the Cutoff are far enough away from I-80 to not care, as yet (and I-80 varies between having six lanes and eight lanes, all the way to Exit 4, where it shrinks to four lanes going under the Cutoff bridge into PA). Traffic jams start around Exit 25, which is near the current terminus of commuter services in Hackettstown, so they could avoid I-80 to travel eastwards on the train if they so wish.

Closest landfill to the D-L tracks is in Dunmore, but there are no tracks leading into it and it's on the wrong side of the highway (I-380). There's a landfill in Taylor, but that would be serviced by the CNJ, which means that there's already access to it via the Lehigh Line and you can't get to it using the DL&W. That's about it for landfills that you might be able to get to via the Cutoff. Neither CN nor D-L run garbage trains...

[quote="Irish Chieftain"][quote]Conrail like it or not took a few railroads in very bad shape and made them into a successful business[/quote]That's why Conrail is still around today as an independent railroad, right...? If Conrail was such a success, they wouldn't have sold out to CSX and NS. You don't slit your throat and then try to eat. Imagine if trucking firms owned the roads? We'd be having interstate highway abandonments due to high costs...[/quote]


I guess you are not in business. If you can take an amalgam of tired properties, turn them into a profit center and sell them for big bucks, you did pretty good. Toss in the fact that this was done on the government dime and you have corporate-welfare capitalism at is finest.

Conrail was a success, like it or not, when measured by the standards of today's business world... which are the only standards shareholders care about.

Not saying I like it, but it is the way it is. I hope it changes, but if I tell you how I will stray way off topic.

Chief,

A few corrections on New Jersey and Lackawanna Valley topography and rail operations...

[quote="Irish Chieftain"]
nor is there any connection between Port Newark and the Lackawanna, unless you go through Phillipsburg NJ.[/quote]

The M&E is rebuilding the Rahway Valley. That will connect the Lehigh Line to the DL&W in Summit.


[quote="Irish Chieftain"]

Closest landfill to the D-L tracks is in Dunmore, but there are no tracks leading into it and it's on the wrong side of the highway (I-380).[/quote]

Of course, you do know that there is track intact there on the other side of the Interstate, it is the old Winton Branch. The D-L has two choices of access should the business materialize.

[quote="Irish Chieftain"]
There's a landfill in Taylor, but that would be serviced by the CNJ, which means that there's already access to it via the Lehigh Line and you can't get to it using the DL&W. That's about it for landfills that you might be able to get to via the Cutoff. Neither CN nor D-L run garbage trains...[/quote]

The CNJ is GONE from Laurel Run all the way to Scranton save for a few hundred feet here or there, plus the section of the D&H they had trackage rights on. The landfill at Taylor, if it were opened for trash trains, would either be served via a transload fromt he Keyser Valley branch, or the rebuilding of the O&W/LV route up the mountain by the Turnpike. Exisiting lines on the backside of Taylor are gone save for the remains of the DL&W Keyser Valley branch which is operated by the Reading & Northern. The CNJ did not have any branches in Taylor that went back by the landfill.

Of course, these lines in the Keyser Valley were mostly DL&W trackage, and all the routes or grades are still there, so your comment about not accessing it from the DL&W false. You could run a train today over all ex DL&W track from the NJ border and get within two miles of the landfill.


[quote="Irish Chieftain"]
Neither CN nor D-L run garbage trains...[/quote]

Well, I am not sure how the CN fits into this, as they just have a run-through with the NS. The D-L, of course, began running garbage trains years ago to the recylcing plant below Dickson City.

Any desire to write off frieght traffic on the Cut-Off is premature, and IMHO shortsighted. As the need for capacity grows, all lines are in play.

JH

Hint: Uncheck the boxes that say "Disable HTML" and "Disable BBCode" if you want to use the Quote feature.

The M&E may be rebuilding the RVRR, but Union County's financing it. NJT is not going to give them trackage rights onto the Cutoff though. M&E isn't a heavy-volume hauler like CSX and NS.

The non-garbage-train related fears have to do with Port Newark expansion. That's the container business. There's no way to get from Port Newark to the Cutoff; and if such a route were to be constructed, it'd have to get past the high platforms at Dover, which would require a gauntlet track that there is no room for, not to mention raising the catenary wire to clear double-stack trains (which are generally over 20 feet tall). You sure won't be able to run double-stackers on the Morristown Line, ever. Besides, you sure ain't running garbage trains past Dover's platforms either (look at the clearance of the garbage trains past the Townley and Roselle Park platforms as they go through the gauntlet tracks).

As for the CNJ, that's the main route along the Lehigh River until you get to Jim Thorpe, and whatever the Reading and Northern uses (I'm aware that it's gone via Wilkes-Barre), so that's what I meant by using the CNJ to access Taylor Borough. That's the only route you can use to fit a trash train through. NJT clearances are too narrow.

Rate abuse is standard in today's marketplace and unfortunately, competition does nothing to stop it. Monopolies charge high prices, but excessive or inexperienced competition charges rates less than the cost of doing business. Neither is good for the public.

Today's railroads are not used to competition nor are they optimized for it. They are treated as utilities to some extent and in some cases, they act like public utilities. When railroads have difficulty earning their cost of capital, it means that railroading as we know it will eventually end without some intervention. The Conrail deal probably postponed this event another few years, but a similar deal will have to happen again soon.

Again it is important to note that east of Dover there are no real good, direct connections to any freight yards; side and overhead clearances do not match contemporary freight railroading needs; NJT traffic would keep freight holed up somewhere west of Dover anyway; no way would the Rahway Valley be able to run such trains thru Summit and no way would it be economically viable to "rehabilitate" the Boonton Line (Upper or Lower). The LV line east from Allentown has to be the one designated (now) as a freight line; improvements have to be--and will be-- made there over time for this to keep being viable; same with the old RDG route to PHila. NYSW could be improve a little bit more and be a more viable freight route as could the old Erie west of Suffern. All these routes make better sense for potential, expanding, and existing freight traffic than the Morris & Esses lines to the Cut Off. Local freight is a must for the economy of the counties and communities along the line but bear in mind that except for lcl or team track sidings at stations there never was local freight traffic on the Cut Off. Why does this fear filled lie keep cropping up that there will be such traffic on the Cut Off when it is virtually impossible, uneconomical, and out of the main for any such traffic?

Just a side question: The LVRR route is a prime mover route for the high speed/large (both size and length) freights out of Jersey. What is its current usage versus max. practical operational capacity? Not wanting to mix apples and oranges, but I assume with the projected increase in freight out of the port areas, the LVRR will be reaching max operational capacity (soon??) kind of the way we discuss NY Penn Station being out of capacity for additional passenger trains. This will force review of alternatives like more tracks on the LVRR (which I understand is on going in certain locales) and other options.

If the existing routes reach capacity (to include potential upgrades), then alternate routes will need to be explored, rehabbed, or upgraded. Not to throw any logs on the fires for the NIMBYs, but what would be involved in raising the catenaries? Shorter hangers or extending the poles? Width issues regarding platform clearance is significant but almost anything can be re-engineered if you don't factor in the check book (granted that the NJ check book is empty for now).

Although I am no way near knowledgeable enough on the specifics that prevent practical use of the Cut Off for and track feeds for freight in their current status, one lesson I did learn is that in one shape or form, EVERYTHING changes or can be put into play. Like they said about Sean Connery in the '80s...Never Say Never.

By the way...I never seem to hear about the horrible condition or qualityof life for the poor soles that live along the LVRR. And they have the garbage trains and the long high speed freights and creosote ties, potential delays of firetrucks at the few grade crossings, and every other horror that the NIMBYs are trying to scare people about. Why is Morris County whining? I gerw up in Cranford for twenty two years (OK that was a long time ago) but I never remember hearing any major complainst other than grumbling about horns or such.

LV route is now single tracked for most of its length with passing sidings. Sidings can be lengthened and/or second track added as and where needed. Even possible reuse of the old CNJ route could be rehabed for use including double tracking east of High Bridge to accomodate traffic.
THe Erie (Southern Tier Route or Delaware Division or Port Jervis Line) could handle more traffic with additional sidings or even so far as returning to complete double track. THe NYS&W route is probably more now than it ever was even in the 20's, 30's and 40's when it extended to Stroudsburg and Wilkes Barre, connected with the Lehigh and New England, and went to Hanford to Middletown and connected with the NYO&W. It would really need major work to become high speed and major east west freight hauler like CSX to Phila or Albany and west and NS to Allentown and west. At present it can probably handle about 6 round trips a day, tops, including its NJT-NS route Warwick-Campbell Hall-Port Jervis-Binghamton. It could also be upgraded enough to handle limited commuter service to Sparta from either Pompton (rebuild NY&GL to Mt. View) or from Hawthorn to Hoboken. The Lackawanna route west from Dover used to go to Washington to Phillipsburg and to Washington to Portland, PA on what was the original DL&W before EL ripped up from Delaware, NJ to Washington. Then there was the Cut Off, built in the early 1900s from Port Morris, NJ to Slatford, PA where it connected with the "Old Road" via Washington. Conrail abandoned this route outright and ripped up the track. When something like this is removed it is very difficult to replace. NIMBY's, not used to a railroad, not wanting their lives and neighborhoods to change, or have forgotten what it was like when there was a railroad, will try to block its return. Proper planning and coordination of railroads, governments, and shippers can work out a plan that is economically sound, enviormentally safe, and useful for all needs.

My point of view of why there are NIMBYS come from the fact that I grew up in Denville alongside the DL&W tracks from about '46 to mid 60's. Minimum two commuter trains an hour, blowing for the station crossing as well as the two in Mt. Tabor. Plus commuter rush hours on both lines east of town, 8-10 mainline passenger trains (to Stroudsburg, Scranton, BInghamton, Elmira, Buffalo), several local freights to Summit or Boonton and Paterson, and up to a dozen or more mainline freights in either direction all on a daily basis. Never bothered me. Been gone basically since 1961. When I visit the family today the railroad is virtually silent and still, unnoticed. What I raise hell about is the din and roar pushed up by the "sound barriers" along Route 80; if I were still living there I would have been a NIMBY about that not the railroad. Its all perspective.