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  • Delaware and Raritan River Railroad-General Discussion

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

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 #1618504  by R&DB
 
The TRIT is of no consideration as there is the possibility of maybe 1 tank of propane a week. The cost to upgrade the crossings to Builders (especialy Rte-37) would be prohibitive.
Also opening to Lakehurst gives a much longer run-around than Cross Street and connection to CMSL.
Last edited by R&DB on Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1618511  by AceMacSD
 
I love the speculation.

There's no need to return Lakewood to Lakehurst to service. There’s nothing down there. Real conversations were had with real people who actually make the decisions. There’s NO sand business there or in the near future. Unless real business (not I heard so and so wants rail service) opens up on the Toms River line, there's no need to do any work beyond Lakewood.
 #1618527  by CharlieL
 
Well, supposedly there will be a wye in Farmingdale, or according to speculation on this thread, a small yard.
Could they not drop cars there, make the north run (1 customer?) then come back, pick up the dropped cars and proceed to woodhaven (or vice-versa) ? Lotsa options.
As for Lakehurst and the TRIT, they were given (forced to take?) control. No customers, no reason to reactivate.
If what they're doing Frhd-Fmdl takes 6 months, how much lead would they need to reopen if they had some kind of volume going past Lakewood.
It may be fun for us to speculate, but it's a business to them. Where's the money in keeping a bunch of armchair railroaders happy?
 #1618529  by JohnFromJersey
 
AceMacSD wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:41 pm There's no need to return Lakewood to Lakehurst to service. There’s nothing down there. Real conversations were had with real people who actually make the decisions. There’s NO sand business there or in the near future. Unless real business (not I heard so and so wants rail service) opens up on the Toms River line, there's no need to do any work beyond Lakewood.
Who are the people you spoke with?

A couple of things:

1. Perhaps C&D will be given access to Browns Yard so they can just go in there, and do pick up and drop off? Would make more sense. If CR is going to have to come far down the line and drop off carloads at some yard at say Farmingdale or Route 88, you might as well just have CR start doing service again. Someone mentioned something about a union agreement with CR that would prevent DRRR coming into Browns, and then someone else said that's not true. No one ever posted a link or anything like that to back themselves up, so I have no clue. There is quite a lot of baseless speculation here, and it's not just about sand trains

2. I am 90% sure the grant said something about Lakewood to Lakehurst. I could be wrong. And fixing that up is brush clearing and some mild track work from what it seems, stuff that DRRR has already done on the Southern and will certainly not be the work DRRR is doing between Freehold and Farmingdale. I have a hard time believing that nothing will come out of Lakehurst-Woodmansie, since if that line is dead and nothing will come out of it, why do NJSL and Clayton continue to do maintenance to it? Even if it is "chump change" to spend maybe $10-50k paying the taxes, the maintenance to the abandoned line, etc. there can't be much benefit to doing all of that for something that has no rail potential, like many are saying around here. It just doesn't make sense, even for a state like NJ.

3. The TRIT is mostly dead. I'm not even sure why that line isn't listed as completely abandoned, especially since a year or so ago they did crossing maintenance up to the curve into Ciba-Geigy. I've heard rumors that there would be some sort of transloading site on the TRIT, but if that's true that won't happen until well after Farmingdale-Freehold is done. I think NJT is just making sure the TRIT stays under RR control and is not abandoned, since, if NJT ever ran trains down to Ocean County, having the terminus for that hypothetical line be at the Park and Ride in Toms River would make sense. Almost all property along the TRIT that could have been used for industrial purposes has been eaten up by all the housing developments and healthcare facilities that have overtaken the Holiday City area over the last 20-30 years

4. Obviously there is some sort of very large potential along the SOUS for the state to step in and throw a bunch of money at C&D to reconnect Farmingdale to Freehold. The FIT honestly wouldn't really benefit, since they aren't restricted by NJT the way the SOUS is. I seriously doubt that all this is just for a couple of lumber trains a week, there's something bigger in the works
 #1618534  by pdtrains
 
Lots of ppl here with too much time on their hands. LOL.

1. freehold - farmingdale is being opened up to get the freight off the NYLB south of ESSAY. NJT hates having to deal with freight trains...even if its only 2 RT a week. The door fall;ing off a box car at the Red Bank station didnt help either. Supposedly it will also allow larger/heavier cars to the SOUS. Its not part of some grand plan. Where do u get these ideas?
It would be nice if more traffic comes along, but i dont think its a given by any means. C&D reportedly has been trying to get more customers on the lines out in west jersey, but so far to no avail. They lost a customer in Stewartsville, thru no fault of their own, The company just closed the plant.
New Jersey is not manufacturing friendly. Its all about politicians stuffing their pockets from building as many condos as possible. Also taxing the hell out of everybody and everything. Fr ppl who work in NYC, its still cheaper than living in New York. For manufacturers, its go south, where the land, payroll, and taxes are a lot cheaper.

Also, back in the olden days, factories were built a lot closer to the population they served. There were a lot of factories in North Jersey that served the tri-state region. Today, its cheaper to have the plant wherever, and just truck stuff to the destination. This also coincided with new manufacturing technologies, which encouraged companies to build all new mega-plants, and shut down the old ones. It was way more efficient than trying to upgrade smaller, older factories.

And in 1976, Stanley Crane and his ilk decided that he didnt want to handle cartload freight..as it was much less profitable than unit trains. Stupid short term thinking imho, but thats what all MBA are taught these days. At least CR tried to offload some of the branchlines to shortlies, to have them do the local switching, and have CR do the long haul. But where that didnt work, CR blatently tried to replace local freights with trucks.

2. Getting back to the SOUS/FIT.....lengthening the cross street runaround shout be easy, from what I can see on goog maps. Im sure they will also put in yard tracks/a runaround somewhere to facilitate car handling. Thats no big deal to do.

3. You RR employees.....calm down. When I was working on the RR in north Jersey, everyone was bitter and negative. I see that nothings changed, The history of freight railroading in North Jersey has been downhill since the 1960's. Its hard to be positive when all you've seen since you hired on, is less and less jobs available. It would be nice if freight railroading returned to New Jersey...not probable, but nice. No need to be quite so negative. At least we are seeing 5 miles of RR rebuilt. Better than nothing, but loss of some jobs for the CR ppl. I understand.
 #1618536  by Bracdude181
 
@pdtrains was that Berrys Plastics that left? They still have a place in hightstown although I hear they haven’t been getting much.

Just on the loss of CR jobs, wouldn’t they have reassigned those crews elsewhere? North Jersey always seems to have issues with crew availability from what I see.

Not surprising to hear C&D hasn’t picked up anybody out there. Mainly because those lines are largely in the middle of nowhere. Seems the vast majority of traffic out there is between Rockport and Phillipsburg now. The other areas hardly get anything now.

Why not look for people around here? Surely there must be one guy down here they can pick up?
 #1618537  by HazzanDan
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:18 am I agree, but even without sand they may have no choice but to reopen it. What are they gonna do when F’dale to Freehold reopens, bring Woodhavens train AND freeholds cars all the way down to cross street? Not enough room there!
Have also heard they aren’t going to open the TRIT either.
1. Would you please explain why C&D "may have no choice but to reopen" Lakewood to Lakehurst. Who would require that, and why would C&D be obligated?

2. As you know, the TRIT now ends at a spur to the contaminated Ciba-Geigy site in Toms River. I have long hoped that, once the ongoing and years-long remediation is completed, a new but different industrial complex could be built there which would use freight rail service. So last week I attended a public hearing about that in Toms River to learn more. The top state environmental staff gave detailed presentations, and they personally told me that no industry will EVER be permitted there again. Since there is probably no other rail-eligible company except Builders General Supply anywhere along the TRIT, it is therefore very unlikely that the TRIT will be restored.
 #1618538  by JohnFromJersey
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:49 pm Why not look for people around here? Surely there must be one guy down here they can pick up?
DRRR is most likely more focused on getting this project out. Also, I'd imagine, most of the customers they could find are along the SOUS and would like to utilize heavier cars, which is not possible with NJT's multiple points of weight restrictions south of South Amboy

Hence, waiting until FIT-SOUS is reconnected. And they are moving fast!
 #1618543  by JohnFromJersey
 
HazzanDan wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:54 pm 1. Would you please explain why C&D "may have no choice but to reopen" Lakewood to Lakehurst. Who would require that, and why would C&D be obligated?

2. As you know, the TRIT now ends at a spur to the contaminated Ciba-Geigy site in Toms River. I have long hoped that, once the ongoing and years-long remediation is completed, a new but different industrial complex could be built there which would use freight rail service. So last week I attended a public hearing about that in Toms River to learn more. The top state environmental staff gave detailed presentations, and they personally told me that no industry will EVER be permitted there again. Since there is probably no other rail-eligible company except Builders General Supply anywhere along the TRIT, it is therefore very unlikely that the TRIT will be restored.
1. If Lakewood-Lakehurst was mentioned in the grant, then they have to do something about it, especially if they got money for it. Does someone have the full details to the grant so we can verify this?

2. Not surprised. I have been hearing that they want to turn the former site into a solar panel field. Or housing. Which, honestly, is stupid that they'll allow people to live there, but not allow an industry to be there...

If instead of taking the spur into the ex-Ciba Geigy plant, you continue going East, the ROW is in-tact until the Toms River Park and Ride
 #1618547  by CJPat
 
AceMacSD wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:41 pm I love the speculation.

There's no need to return Lakewood to Lakehurst to service. There’s nothing down there. Real conversations were had with real people who actually make the decisions. There’s NO sand business there or in the near future. Unless real business (not I heard so and so wants rail service) opens up on the Toms River line, there's no need to do any work beyond Lakewood.
AceMacSD, if I may and with true due respect sir, you've sounded very confident, like several others on this thread that "There’s NO sand business there or in the near future." Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to call you out on anything and I sure enough have no specific knowledge in this matter. As I observed Clayton's initial line clearing way back in 2006 and not much has been done since, other than crossing reconstruction by the County, it is looking like you may be very accurate in your statement. The line was cleared initially because Clayton thought they had their shot at THE Tunnel project that Gov Christie struck down.

The one question I would ask of you, is:
Are you aware of someone else pulling the sand contract on the revised Hudson Tunnel project, to include the rebuild of the original tunnels once the tne new tunnels are complete? Now this may very well fall under the your qualifier statement of "or in the near future" as the project is still a couple of years off. If so, I can understand your statement.

My perspective of what qualifies as "the near future" may very well differ from yours, but saying "NO sand business" sounds odd to me as, unless there is already a lock on a different sand supplier, I would think Clayton could very well stand a competitive chance to pull that business.

But then again, Clayton didn't pull the contract to help supply the rebuild of the Tappan Zee Bridge. I have no idea what source they used for that sand and how they got it to the site.
 #1618548  by Ken W2KB
 
JohnFromJersey wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:53 pm 2. Not surprised. I have been hearing that they want to turn the former site into a solar panel field. Or housing. Which, honestly, is stupid that they'll allow people to live there, but not allow an industry to be there...

If instead of taking the spur into the ex-Ciba Geigy plant, you continue going East, the ROW is in-tact until the Toms River Park and Ride
Recent news describes the plan for the Ciba Geigy site: https://www.nj.gov/dep/newsrel/2022/22_0044.htm
Last edited by Ken W2KB on Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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