Grand Central Madison TIMETABLES AND RIDERSHIP THREAD

MACTRAXX, et al.: The Wednesday, Jan 25th, 2023 one day only timetable, courtesy of Kevin Wong:





LIRR Personnel that day, 1/25/2023 - 40% down the page: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/GSM/Gr ... adison.htm

For discussion of the new timetables. Full service begins February 27.

For discussion of the GCM Terminal: grand-central-madison-terminal-discussi ... 75043.html

Everyone - The MTA has posted information by branch overviewing LIRR service changes effective February 27:
https://new.mta.info/agency/long-island ... ch-service
The new PDF timetables for each branch are available in each outline or at the bottom of the introductory page.

The City Terminal Zone has been separated into four separate timetables:
Jamaica to Penn Station
Jamaica to Grand Central
Kew Gardens and Forest Hills service
Jamaica to Atlantic Terminal and Hunterspoint Avenue - Long Island City

This is the beginning of what could be a lively discussion of these extensive LIRR service changes...
MACTRAXX

Long Island Rail Road PDF Timetables

"Grand Central Direct shuttle service: Effective January 26 - February 26, 2023"

"Download new LIRR schedules, effective February 27"

Both Penn and GCT times may have J in front of them, meaning transfer at Jamaica. I plan to see what lines are Jamaica - Manhattan express lines and which ones make local stops.

Of the branches that go to the two Manhattan stations, all but one alternate between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal. That one is the Long Beach branch, which alternates on weekdays and goes only to GCT on weekends except in the middle of the night.

Of the stations between Manhattan and Jamaica,

• Babylon: Forest Hills, (Woodside) - alternating
• Hempstead: Kew Gardens, (Woodside) - alternating
• Port Jefferson: Kew Gardens, Woodside - alternating
• Ronkonkoma, Far Rockaway: Woodside
• Long Beach: Woodside, Forest Hills - alternating

Though with middle-of-night exceptions.

I checked the city-terminal schedules, and only one stop at any of these stations seems to be the case for all the branches. More trains stopped at Woodside than at the other two.

In the old schedules, however, every train that stopped at Forest Hills also stopped at Kew Gardens and vice versa, and most trains stopped at Woodside. There were a few trains that stopped at FH and KG but not WS, however.

Wow, lots of new stuff to digest with these schedules.

Initial Thoughts:

-Dislike that Brooklyn is missing from certain schedules (Far Rockaway for example) but is listed on West Hempstead. Should be universally included on all schedules despite no direct service. At least until the Brooklyn shuddle service gets more understood.
-Really no connections are listed. If a train skips Forest Hills for example, it should list the train I need to take from there eastbound to then change at Jamaica like the older schedules.
-Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale stops more often just made Long Beach trips longer.
-Huntington, Cold Spring Harbor, and Syosset customers have to endure long local trips now.
-Hopefully express service bypassing Jamaica comes back soon.
-Looks like a majority of the schedules changed completely. Many trains that were in place for over 3 decades are now gone.

More comments to follow

lpetrich wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:55 pm Of the branches that go to the two Manhattan stations, all but one alternate between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal. That one is the Long Beach branch, which alternates on weekdays and goes only to GCT on weekends except in the middle of the night.

Of the stations between Manhattan and Jamaica,

• Babylon: Forest Hills, (Woodside) - alternating
• Hempstead: Kew Gardens, (Woodside) - alternating
• Port Jefferson: Kew Gardens, Woodside - alternating
• Ronkonkoma, Far Rockaway: Woodside
• Long Beach: Woodside, Forest Hills - alternating

Though with middle-of-night exceptions.

I checked the city-terminal schedules, and only one stop at any of these stations seems to be the case for all the branches. More trains stopped at Woodside than at the other two.

In the old schedules, however, every train that stopped at Forest Hills also stopped at Kew Gardens and vice versa, and most trains stopped at Woodside. There were a few trains that stopped at FH and KG but not WS, however.

Did you see the PM Rush from NY to KO? Its Penn, GCT, GCT, GCT, Penn, WHY? 30 mins between PEnn trains. and one of the GCT trains dies in Brentwood. No one is going to change in Brentwood. Whats the train going to do there?/ GO to Ronkonkoma empty... WHy?

Jo24Sam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:58 pm -Really no connections are listed. .

We've eliminated scheduled connections in Jamaica.

Jo24Sam wrote: If a train skips Forest Hills for example, it should list the train I need to take from there eastbound to then change at Jamaica like the older schedules.

All trains will stop at Jamaica

They recommend to use the TrainTime app to see possible connections at Jamaica.

Montauk schedules have connections listed for the western termini. But Brooklyn is not listed. Each schedule has a different look for the western termini also. - confusing.

I do understand they want people to use the app, but these reference timetables are incomplete.

Jo24Sam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:58 pm -Really no connections are listed. If a train skips Forest Hills for example, it should list the train I need to take from there eastbound to then change at Jamaica like the older schedules.

I agree, but I think the issue is that timed connections are only in place for diesel trains.

Jo24Sam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:58 pm -Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale stops more often just made Long Beach trips longer.

I think that's an attempt to generate ridership from the Queens stations, given that CityTicket is now available off-peak (and from what the governor mentioned a couple of weeks ago, will eventually be available on peak trains as well). A similar logic for the Huntington-Penn Station trains stopping at Queens Village & Hollis.

Jo24Sam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:58 pm -Hopefully express service bypassing Jamaica comes back soon.

Hopefully it never returns. Nothing should be skipping such a major station, especially given the greater emphasis on transferring in this new system.

lpetrich wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:55 pm Of the branches that go to the two Manhattan stations, all but one alternate between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal. That one is the Long Beach branch, which alternates on weekdays and goes only to GCT on weekends except in the middle of the night.

Of the stations between Manhattan and Jamaica,

• Babylon: Forest Hills, (Woodside) - alternating
• Hempstead: Kew Gardens, (Woodside) - alternating
• Port Jefferson: Kew Gardens, Woodside - alternating
• Ronkonkoma, Far Rockaway: Woodside
• Long Beach: Woodside, Forest Hills - alternating

Though with middle-of-night exceptions.

I checked the city-terminal schedules, and only one stop at any of these stations seems to be the case for all the branches. More trains stopped at Woodside than at the other two.

In the old schedules, however, every train that stopped at Forest Hills also stopped at Kew Gardens and vice versa, and most trains stopped at Woodside. There were a few trains that stopped at FH and KG but not WS, however.

I think they made a big deal about that in the draft schedules, that trains would only be stopping at one of those stations between Jamaica and Manhattan. The problem is that limits flexibility, since all of those trains need to run on the local track. I think they would've been better off having trains from Long Beach, Hempstead and Far Rockaway make those stops, and have most trains on the Main Line and Babylon Branch run express (with some trains stopping add Woodside as the schedule permits).

geico wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:43 am Did you see the PM Rush from NY to KO? Its Penn, GCT, GCT, GCT, Penn, WHY? 30 mins between Penn trains. and one of the GCT trains dies in Brentwood. No one is going to change in Brentwood. Whats the train going to do there?/ GO to Ronkonkoma empty... Why?

That's unfortunately an issue with a lot of the branches...you have a bunch of trains in a row to GCT and then a bunch of trains in a row to Penn, so the waits are long to the opposite terminal if your train is caught in the gap.

Personally, I think the Port Jefferson shuttles should've all been extended to Hicksville at a minimum to connect with the Ronkonkoma express trains. They should've run the Oyster Bay trains to Hunterspoint Avenue, and the Montauk trains should've been a mix of hourly Babylon - Mastic/Shirley shuttles, with bihourly Montauk - Jamaica trains (eliminating the need for separately SFCC service). Diesel territory is unfortunately still the forgotten stepchild of the railroad.

For the life of me, I can't understand why the new Elmont station needs 5 TPH all day long on weekends.

Everyone - This major LIRR schedule change implementation brings this thought to my mind: "You can not please all of the people all of the time"

A comprehensive schedule change of this magnitude is a monumental task by the LIRR and MTA. These LIRR service changes effective February 27 are the most extensive since the 1970s and 1980s.

I am going to have to make separate posts on these observations with the limitations of my device.

I will start with CTG's comment on Elmont Station getting regular service in the new schedule - The plan for Elmont may be to use the parking lot adjacent to Platform B for a new park-and-ride option from the Cross Island Parkway and adjacent area on non-event days similar to how the Citi Field/Flushing Meadow lots are used to access the #7 train and LIRR at Mets-Willets Point (nearby).

There may be some limited parking available at Elmont paralleling Platform A...To placate the Bellerose Terrace NIMBYs the only station entrance from the north is at the pedestrian overpass. The opposition is to outsiders parking near the station or in the residential neighborhood to use the LIRR - or during events at the UBS Arena or Belmont Park by using the overpass for access.

MACTRAXX

Regarding the new center track east of Massapequa, it appears that trains 1120, 1124 and 1126 during the AM rush enter that track and wait to follow by 3 minutes a westbound that will run non-stop from Wantagh to Jamaica. There are a total of 13 trains in the morning rush that start at Wantagh. They make local stops to Rockville Centre. Later ones add Lynbrook. Other westbound trains entering the morning rush apparently are empties from Babylon Yard. Wantagh passengers have a choice of many trains.
---
The increased eastbound service on the Babylon Branch forces more trains to do westbound morning trips via the Central Branch. On the current schedule, only 2703 from Montauk visits Hicksville and Mineola, used by office workers and Chaminade students from Suffolk County. Beginning February 27, 2023, two more Montauk Branch trains will stop at Hicksville and Mineola. Sure, that slows the service, but makes it more convenient for island riders.

Everyone - With one week until the extensive LIRR schedule changes for full service to Grand Central
I will mention that changes and adjustments over the course of 2023 are going to be an inevitable part
of this implementation process to see what WILL - and will NOT work - for LIRR commuters.
The "evolution" of this new schedule over time will be interesting to observe...

The most major single factor with the opening of Grand Central is seeing how the Manhattan-bound
ridership divides between Penn Station - which was until now the LIRR's prime single destination - and
Grand Central on a percentage basis. The current thought is that 45 percent of LIRR riders will use GC...

Something else to remember is that LIRR ridership has been noted to be around 70 percent recovery
since "The Problem" began just about three years ago (mid-March 2020) and the increase in electric
service levels on much of the LIRR system with GC opening is to attract more riders back to the trains...

BSB: After looking at the new Babylon Branch timetable dividing weekday peak services into two station
groups at Wantagh east and west is an interesting change - beginning with the implementation of zone
fares in the early 1970s groups of stations were previously divided into blocks of three (or four) for peak
weekday service in this manner:
Rockville Centre, Baldwin, Freeport - original Zone 5 (Lynbrook is in Zone 4)
Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh - original Zone 6
Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park - original Zone 7
Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst - original Zone 8; Babylon (alone) in Zone 9

Trains have "deadheaded" (RR slang term for empty equipment train) to and from the
Babylon Yard from their origin/destination points along the Babylon Branch for decades.
The interesting new option is finally using the Massapequa center track for peak service.

In recent years the LIRR implemented what I will call "Psuedo-Express" service stopping at -
Babylon, Amityville, Massapequa, Bellmore, Freeport (sometimes Lynbrook) and Jamaica.
In the new schedule these trains run outside of the Peak AM and Peak PM time period.
A 2023 adjustment could be adding some of these trains during peak hours as connecting
services from Patchogue and Speonk trains terminating/originating at Babylon.

Montauk Branch diesel trains to/from Jamaica are going to use the Central Branch and Main Line
through Hicksville and Mineola more often to take advantage of the recently-added third track -
which may now be a faster through ride instead of over the Babylon Branch - and offer more
commuting possibilities to those two important intermediate stations in the process.

In closing this post the new LIRR schedule is going to be an evolving WORK IN PROGRESS...MACTRAXX