All Things Empire Builder

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:21 pm

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:20 pm https://www.insider.com/amtrak-train-tr ... 2023-1?amp

Clickbait list article. Nothing to really see here.

Yet you still clicked on my post!

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:29 am Yet you still clicked on my post!

Yeah, I gotta stop that because half of the stuff is paywalled and I hear there's a nasty spin on the reporting that affects the articles' accuracy.

Something has been released: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=103960

JimBoylan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:05 pm Something has been released: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=103960

The docket is open with all the info gathered, but no final determination has been released yet.

Question, just an opinion; how does safety these days compare on BNSF, NS, UP, CSX, CP, CN? With PSR, super long trains, smaller crews, track closings, yard closings, much higher profits, trains too long for passing sidings?

Seems like there are fewer and fewer derailments when you get past grade crossing collisions, which arguably aren't something PSR influences. Not sure what the data says, though.

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Granted - but IMHO it behooves state agencies and railroads to work together (get whatever Fed money they can) for reducing these, which would need a combo of crossing gates, better visibility, some grade separation, and some better warnings and rules for drivers.

From Hilton Suites Boca Raton--

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:14 pm Question, just an opinion; how does safety these days compare on BNSF, NS, UP, CSX, CP, CN? With PSR, super long trains, smaller crews, track closings, yard closings, much higher profits, trains too long for passing sidings?

Mr. Bug, what I have difficulty reconciling is your continued obversion to the Friedman Doctrine, which is summarized et seq:

The Friedman Doctrine is also referred to as the Shareholder Theory. American economist Milton Friedman developed the doctrine as a theory of business ethics that states that “an entity’s greatest responsibility lies in the satisfaction of the shareholders.” Therefore, the business should always endeavor to maximize its revenues to increase returns for the shareholders.

In all likelihood, you are a shareholder yourself - even if through a mutual fund buried into a retirement plan such as a 401k, as distinct from a Brokerage Account in your own name.

Now while the subject here is Joplin, and the potential that Uncle Warren was trying to operate trains for which his road was not designed to handle resulting in the Amtrak incident there, it should be encouraging that Warren's BNSF has the resources to satisfy claimants up to where the very high deductible catastrophic insurance kicks in. First, this presumes BNSF will be held liable for faulty track (and let me emphasize, Mr. Meyer if you're reading), I'm not saying such is the case, rather than faulty Amtrak MofE.

The same is equally applicable to Topper and E. Palestine.

I promise you that "my moribund MILW" would have been busted by a like incident occurring, say, at Two Dot, long before the catastrophic insurance would kick in.

That today there is a financially healthy railroad industry attractive to Wall Street, means that these noted incidents, et magna alia, will have legitimate claimants satisfied.

With thanks to Jim Boylan for the current NTSB link - PLEASE NOTE the NTSB has yet to render its conclusion as to cause - the NTSB has posted the video image from the head end of Train #7, revealing a point of buckled track, in the curve where the Empire Builder's point of derailment occurred.

You can also see images of the flange marks at the POD (flange mark across the outside "high rail" and grease mark on the "low rail" where the rim dropped inside the gauge.

From the evidence accumulated, it would appear this curve was a "problem spot" on BNSF, with a then-recent history of tie replacement with inconsistent anchoring, plug rails with suspended joints, evidence of longitudinal rail movement and significant variation from the designated cross-level, among other exceptions.

You can easily see (if you look) that NTSB has been characteristically thorough in its accumulation of the evidence.

I've never been a fan of Mr. Friedman, starting from when I was earning an Economics degree. I vehemently disagree with his 'theory', because certain types of business, ones that do things that can be very dangerous, have a bigger obligation to the public to not endanger it, and the same to their employees. Cutting way back on workers to the degree it's not safe, having rules that allow danger to get out of control (defect warnings ignored until it's too bad and too late, for instance), forcing workers to work when they are not sufficiently healthy... Railroads today have caused all sorts of problems in the name of shareholder profit and executive overpay.

When a train runs over a section of track the rail bends very , very slightly between cross ties. Bending produces a small amount of heat. Now when over 1000 axels pass over each deformation the rail might tend to have a case some kind of reaction. Now did the freights before cause the miss alignment. Not speculating.

From memory, the Amtrak engines also did not derail.
Possibly the heavier weight created the momentum to keep the freights and Amtrak engines going straight .

R Paul Carey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:00 am With thanks to Jim Boylan for the current NTSB link - PLEASE NOTE the NTSB has yet to render its conclusion as to cause - the NTSB has posted the video image from the head end of Train #7, revealing a point of buckled track, in the curve where the Empire Builder's point of derailment occurred.

You can also see images of the flange marks at the POD (flange mark across the outside "high rail" and grease mark on the "low rail" where the rim dropped inside the gauge.

From the evidence accumulated, it would appear this curve was a "problem spot" on BNSF, with a then-recent history of tie replacement with inconsistent anchoring, plug rails with suspended joints, evidence of longitudinal rail movement and significant variation from the designated cross-level, among other exceptions.

You can easily see (if you look) that NTSB has been characteristically thorough in its accumulation of the evidence.

Would the anchoring/rail variation issues allow a sun kink to happen? NTSB did say that the rails themselves were measuring north of 90 degrees F, despite ambient temps being about 50 degrees lower (if I remember correctly).

I just heard of such issues and if the above is the case, this would of been a preventable incident.

To the question: "Was this (i.e. buckled track) preventable?", my judgment is yes.

From the facts that appear in the NTSB's exhibits, there were multiple observable and measurable deficiencies - all of which led me to characterize this curve as a "problem spot". For those of you who may know, or have access to, a supervisor (or foreman) who has responsibility for track inspections and repairs, try this...

Ask them: "What are the two or three most critical 'problem spots' in YOUR territory?"

I would urge any interested person to view the NTSB report and its exhibits - particularly those related to the condition of the trackage and its history of maintenance and inspections. It's all there.

Late train