Amtrak Long Distance Fleet Replacement - Superliner Replacement - Bilevel or Single Level

Let us hope that Amtrak does not try to "air commercials" over the PA system on its trains. Even the "car cards" found on commuter railroads and mass transit lines I have always considered intrusive. I don't know how one could make anyone buy something, but I guess they do.

Even non stop advertising has filtered on to airlines. As I shared at several postings about the site, last weekend I was in Miami. The flight down was on an A-319, which had no TV monitors and which the safety briefing was done the old way by the Attendants. However the return was on a B-738 which did have monitors, not only for the safety briefing (I'm fine with that) but also ads for cruises and other vacations for which thankfully the audio was not aired through the cabin.

So I guess I must wonder why one, after having paid for a ride on any transportation company, has to be bombarded by any kind of advertising.

Given airlines' inflight magazines were/are usually 50% advertising, being bombarded with advertising is hardly a new phenomena. But we digress.

Continuing, Mr. Olesen, WAAAY off topic; yes, the in-flight/transit (Amtrak has also had one varietal or the other of that species) magazines seem to be gone, but at least those could just stay in the seat pocket and not otherwise intrude.

The two print newspapers I subscribe to - Journal and Times - both have so-called Style magazines. Mine usually never makes their way into my house, having dumped them on a neighbor's porch where she is "interested in that kind of stuff". But once I did take one in, I counted pages and some two thirds of it comprised ads.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:47 am Continuing, Mr. Olesen, WAAAY off topic; yes, the in-flight/transit (Amtrak has also had one varietal or the other of that species) magazines seem to be gone, but at least those could just stay in the seat pocket and not otherwise intrude.

The two print newspapers I subscribe to - Journal and Times - both have so-called Style magazines. Mine usually never makes their way into my house, having dumped them on a neighbor's porch where she is "interested in that kind of stuff". But once I did take one in, I counted pages and some two thirds of it comprised ads.

It's likely the in-flight mags were taken out by the pandemic. For instance, Southwest's in-flight rag hasn't published an issue since March 2020. Amtrak's "The National" is gone -- even the site is gone and their Twitter feed hasn't posted since May 2020.

That said, they were usually full of ads... like most magazines dating back to 2000. I remember Computer Shopper magazine was basically all ads, even though it spanned hundreds of pages *per month!*

I also remember Southwest carrying a "SkyMall" catalog with various stuff. I don't know if that's still being carried or if the airlines are not carrying it to save weight (and fuel).

Still, back on track, Amtrak's RFI is basically "we want to look at your catalog."

Yes, the last straw for seatback-pocket magazines was no way to disinfect them, and there wasn't enough money involved to justify making them disposable.

Skymall was on almost every US and Canadian airline, but has been gone since 2015, right before Amazon took over e-tailing.

Fun fact... the airlines didn't publish these. It was done by outside companies who printed these and sold the ad space, with the airlines taking a commission for providing the audience. Lots of paper waste, and from a fuel consumption basis, removing an average of 30Kg/60lb from a narrowbody airplane starts to add up. That's 500,000 gallons of fuel per year saved for an airline the size of United.

End of digression #2 for the day....

Having recently travelled coast to coast on Amtrak and VIA Rail overnight back to back for 2 weeks this discussion about new equipment and what amenities they should feature has got me thinking and I have some musings on all of this:

1. As much as I have been in agreement up until now with the “go all single level” like of thinking for cost savings, standardization, deployment flexibility, etc. I have to say there is something unique and special about the Superliner fleet. Which may be in and of itself be a selling point for those who don’t normally ride a bilevel train (I know these things are trivial in nature, but to potential riders they can make some kind of a difference).

2. I wonder if anyone at Amtrak has considered having a “berth car” or a section of each new sleeping car devoted to upper and lower berths. Granted they’re not roomettes, but they’re more economically priced and provide more privacy than coach. I booked a lower berth on VIA Rail from Vancouver to Toronto and I was VERY impressed with the level of comfort offered. And that was in an overhauled 1955 era sleeper. A 2025 era car would be vastly improved.

3. If there’s one thing Amtrak should do more than anything it would be to simply buy a bigger sleeper fleet. The sleeping cars can sell out months in advance (as I found out booking my trip back in October) so there’s clearly a strong market. And with the sleeper bookings contributing to a large chunk of Amtrak’s ticket revenue -and from what I’ve read here that Amtrak pays a “per train” fee to the freight RRs not “per cars per train”- it seems only logical to add more sleepers. Even if you can’t add another dining car people like me will still pay for a roomette or berth if they’re available and reasonably priced (not all of us millennials are fussy haha).

4. For those who can’t afford the sleeper class options I think offering a “Coach Plus” class with shower facilities in either the coaches or lounge cars would at least provide some form of bonus amenity.

Having gone from Boston to Seattle overnight in coach (I was on a tight schedule/budget) I can tell you checking into my hotel room after 4 nights of no shower access was like walking through the Gates Of Heaven

Now I could also say buy locomotives that don’t constantly break down/can’t be easily repaired by the manufacturer’s own technicians, but that’s a whole other kettle of fish..

Unique and special is good, but the ADA problem is real. Amtrak got conveniently off the hook until now because making the existing cars ADA-compliant would be too onerous, but they don't get that "get out of jail free" card on a brand new purchase. The only real solution is to have the lower level be above the trucks and have the gangways be at the bottom rather than the top. Lifts are a non-starter because the space needed for them would basically negate whatever "benefits" the second level gets you in terms of capacity.

lensovet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:52 am Unique and special is good, but the ADA problem is real. Amtrak got conveniently off the hook until now because making the existing cars ADA-compliant would be too onerous, but they don't get that "get out of jail free" card on a brand new purchase. The only real solution is to have the lower level be above the trucks and have the gangways be at the bottom rather than the top. Lifts are a non-starter because the space needed for them would basically negate whatever "benefits" the second level gets you in terms of capacity.

I would contend that there would be a design that would allow for a lift (ether diagonal or full vertical) and bilevel cars. Granted, I will concede that there will be a loss of capacity, but I think you'll still get a 2x capacity over single level equipment.

No way you wind up with double the capacity.

You eat floor space out of both levels for the lift and stairs, and with higher capacity means you have to have more lavatories.

What you do get is double the weight, and that means more fuel...

If Amtrak and the current Administration are serious about being ecologically sustainable, you can't propose a solution that costs more in fuel consumption.

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You could end up closer to double capacity if a variation of the Ultradome was the chosen design. And fuel consumption and other metrics like maintenance is less per passenger in a bi-level.

The math makes that impossible. You lose about 60 SF on each level for stairs and a lift. That's 7-10% of the floorspace that just became unusable.

I'd say the heavier weight per car would drive more maintenance via more brake wear, and the complexity of things like an elevator will probably result in even more unintended downtime. And plumbing?... Twice as many toilets = twice as much to get clogged up and break.

You don't need stairs and a lift in every car. If there's no services offered in the lower floor of most cars, just extra seating, then you could probably get away with lifts in half the cars and stairs in the other half, which wouldn't be any more space than they use now.

sounds like an operational nightmare

andrewjw wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:48 pm You don't need stairs and a lift in every car. If there's no services offered in the lower floor of most cars, just extra seating, then you could probably get away with lifts in half the cars and stairs in the other half, which wouldn't be any more space than they use now.

So.... you're now going to have a passageway with adequate headroom at both levels to move between cars?

Or will customers on the upper level simply be trapped when they're in a car with only a lift and it goes out?

Yeah, operationally, that sounds like a mess.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:28 pm So.... you're now going to have a passageway with adequate headroom at both levels to move between cars?

Or will customers on the upper level simply be trapped when they're in a car with only a lift and it goes out?

Yeah, operationally, that sounds like a mess.

It will be a mess, because it's a new design. But it's manageable.

Although... I think folks need to play around with designing such cars. I've done the same for my novel. I've "de-fured" a template for you all:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/duzrxouykk9kb ... e.odg?dl=0

It's in LibreOffice Draw format (free office suite) but should be importable into what Microsoft has.