Future of Septa Regional Rail Fleet

ElectricTraction wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:05 am

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:43 am The thing to do is look for other regions who also need EMUs, and place an order with a more or less standard design.
Which wouldn't require a crew person for low platforms.

Exactly. An EMU capable of 11kV/25, 12.5kV/60, and 25kV/60 should be able to serve various parts of MARC, SEPTA, RTD, NJT, CDOT, MN (Penn), and MBTA.

Unless the capacity is absolutely necessary (basically if you're going through the North River Tunnels), then multi-level cars are the wrong solution, as they are slower to board and disembark. All high-level platforms and single-level cars, especially EMUs, are the most efficient way to do things in most cases.

ET and SX - SEPTA is going to have to make a CRUCIAL decision concerning the RRD MU car fleet soon -
Order Silverliner Six cars with the same capabilities as the earlier S5 cars or a high-level platform only MU
car fleet of a undetermined type - which will require a multi-million dollar long term high level platform
construction project for various stations throughout the SEPTA RRD System in addition?

Remember that SEPTA does NOT have MTA money or steady sources of subsidies available for funding...
MACTRAXX

It is gonna be tough putting High Level Platforms on a few stations like Lansdale where I don't think they have a high enough ceiling/roof to even place a HLP on one of the tracks next to the station whereas it'd be easy to put on the other tracks at Lansdale Station.

ZS - Good point concerning Lansdale Station...
Each low-level platform station in the RRD system is going to have their own requirements for high-level
platforms to be constructed - In Lansdale's case the Plug Track platform has the canopy - which may be
protected under the Lansdale Station's Historic Landmark status - meaning that a new platform would
have to be constructed north of the building towards the yard area if it is possible...

Another factor that needs mention is that there may be NIMBY opposition to either alterations to stations
or the construction themselves of high level platforms depending on their locations...Coming to mind is
Elkins Park Station on the southbound side with its low canopy and wood platform - a new EP platform
would need to be built in a way to keep the current vintage RDG station facilities intact...MACTRAXX

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:47 pm Any one know what would make more sense, platform extenders on platforms, or the rolling stock themselves, or gauntlet tracks for plate Whatever freight?

Just a SWAG from a non-engineer, but I think platform extenders would be cheapest by far (depending on how many stations vs. how many cars), even though the extenders would have to be interlocked with the signal system (as is done on the light-rail Oceanside-to-Escondido operation of North San Diego County) in California. Come to think of it, in the case of gauntlet tracks some means would have to be devised to prevent a freight train from accepting a signal displaying a routing to the gauntlet. Maybe an over-width detector several miles before a freight train would sight the distant signal for the gauntlet?

NJT's Raritan Valley line has gauntlets between Newark and Cranford on the former LV; anybody know whether that kind of protection is provided there?

Gauntlet is the most expensive option because of the signaling and point maintenance.

Extenders in the rolling stock might be next most expensive or cheapest depending on the fleet size and how automated they are. If it's a metal plate manually dropped over the gap, it's the cheapest by far.

Some of you have a love affair with high platforms but there's good reason they're mostly only used in closed passenger systems. METRA as a low level system makes do with an average of 15-30 second station stops unloading hundreds at a time, yet somehow that's too slow for the East Coast folks. You'll never have NYC or Hong Kong/Tokyo volumes on SEPTA...

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On the NJT Raritan Valley Line between Newark and Roselle Park, the two stations with gauntlet tracks have an additional signal, known as a lunar white signal, which protects the platforms from freight trains. So for example, if there is a clear signal at CP Roselle Park with the lunar white displayed, the gauntlet is lined for the NJT platform. No lunar white displayed means it's lined for the freight train.

I was wondering about that; it's not strictly fail-safe. If the gauntlet is inadvertently aligned for the platform when the approaching train is a freight, the lunar white should be displayed, but if it fails and is dark the freight engineer is going to think he has the main and will plan to roll by at track speed; when he reaches the gauntlet and sees that it's misaligned for the platform there isn't much he can do. And if there isn't a corresponding lunar white on the distant and the route at the home signal is lined for the platform the engineer will still have no advance warning that he's going to see a lunar white at the home signal and will need to stop. The whole thing could have been made fail-safe (and still could be) by providing two illuminated arrows side by side, one pointing upward and the other to the left or right, at both the distant and home signals, as is done at Harold (MN) and Woodlawn (LI-Amtrak) so that the engineer is assured he's properly routed before reaching the point of no return. With a positive indication either way any failure will be evident, since both arrows will be dark and the engineer will be prepared to stop before reaching the critical point while the problem is resolved. Admittedly the situation first mentioned above would be very rare, but experience has shown that that's just the sort of thing you need to guard against.

For any anopy that is historic jut raise the canopy and when high platform is built the original post's bases will sit on the raised platform.

Sounds like a lot of hand wringing over nothing. There's plenty of examples around this very system of high level platform stations replacing legacy station infrastructure that has historical elements to it without disturbing them. Ft Washington is a prime example. The original station building is still there and the modern high level platforms were built just to the south of it. I think the way to deal with preservationists is if they're so hell bent on preserving an old building then they better be ready to fork over the adjacent land needed to build around it.

Well there are lots of Abandoned unused stations and lines and no accountability by the SEPTA Board to the people that they serve. They have abandoned light rail lines when other citys were spending $$$$$$$ to put them back in .... They abandoned commuter service to Reading and Allentown when both cities are struggling to revitalize. Most of the SEPTA board members dont even right the system that they represent..

The Reading/Allentown situation has been discussed to death in previous posts. Both are outside the five-county SEPTA area and neither was willing to contribute anything to continue service. SEPTA serves Delaware points at Delaware's expense. If the people of Reading, Allentown, and Bethlehem wanted the service they could have had it all along.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:07 pmET and SX - SEPTA is going to have to make a CRUCIAL decision concerning the RRD MU car fleet soon -
Order Silverliner Six cars with the same capabilities as the earlier S5 cars or a high-level platform only MU
car fleet of a undetermined type - which will require a multi-million dollar long term high level platform
construction project for various stations throughout the SEPTA RRD System in addition?

Remember that SEPTA does NOT have MTA money or steady sources of subsidies available for funding...
MACTRAXX

They should move to all high-level, but until that is done, they should have cars capable as both, in case they end up with one or two station projects somewhere that are stuck because of whatever constraint someone comes up with to stop a high-level project.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:14 amJust a SWAG from a non-engineer, but I think platform extenders would be cheapest by far (depending on how many stations vs. how many cars), even though the extenders would have to be interlocked with the signal system (as is done on the light-rail Oceanside-to-Escondido operation of North San Diego County) in California.

It wasn't an option in the question you were answering, but the cheapest is nothing. The freight trains just go by the platforms and have a couple inches of clearance.

The freight railroads like to have more clearance in case freight cars are out of their plate clearance for some reason, but they don't technically need it. Around here, Plate C freight regularly goes right by high level platforms without an issue. I believe they have wood platform edges that are "sacrificial" if a freight train is out of plate clearance, and relatively cheap/easy to repair.

We have either gauntlet tracks or platforms that are manually unbolted and swung down for high/wide loads, which AFAIK, have never actually come through in the 22 years or so that we've had the high level platforms.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 amSome of you have a love affair with high platforms but there's good reason they're mostly only used in closed passenger systems. METRA as a low level system makes do with an average of 15-30 second station stops unloading hundreds at a time, yet somehow that's too slow for the East Coast folks. You'll never have NYC or Hong Kong/Tokyo volumes on SEPTA...

The gallery cars have big, wide stairs in them. The entire NEC and connecting systems should have entirely high-level platforms. They really speed things up, are more accessible, and safer.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:35 pmIf the gauntlet is inadvertently aligned for the platform when the approaching train is a freight, the lunar white should be displayed, but if it fails and is dark the freight engineer is going to think he has the main and will plan to roll by at track speed; when he reaches the gauntlet and sees that it's misaligned for the platform there isn't much he can do.

The problem with those is that the gauntlet is used by the passenger trains, and is rather tight/curvy, creating a lot of rocking and rolling of passenger equipment. If a stack train got routed through the gauntlet, it might have enough roll to briefly hit the platform, although in theory, if the train is actually within Plate C, F, or H clearance, it would get through OK. At restricted speed, it shouldn't be an issue.

My point was that if the lunar white light fails, the freight engineer won't be expecting to be routed to the gauntlet and won't be moving at restricted speed since he won't know about the misroute until he can actually see the switchpoints.

Doesn't a dark signal immediately require stop and proceed at restricted speed?...

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eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:07 am Doesn't a dark signal immediately require stop and proceed at restricted speed?...

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Can't speak for other railroads but at least for us a dark signal is to be treated as the most restrictive aspect it can display (home signal = stop, distant signal = restricted).