California Orders 29 Hydrogen Fuel Cells Trains for Intercity Services

Agreed, they need to drop the commuter rail model, and use those, which iirc, can do both low and high platforms, without crew member manually operating the traps.
Does METRA run express trains? I'd say, have some coaches (and locomotives) for those, but everything else, DMU.

Yes. Mr. Sratchy, METRA does operate limited stop "express" trains during rush hour periods. At some point, presuming you have "faces in the windows and hind quarters on the seats", it is simply more economical to operate locomotive hauled equipment.

But when I was taking my walks before sun-up during the summer months, I didn't see to much in the way of "faces" as trains would pass.

Now what was very uneconomical was when the Boston & Maine RR disposed of all their locomotives and cars used in Boston area in favor of RDC's (DMU in newspeak), they were operating ten car trains with RDC's. The economics could hardly be favorable.

So I believe that any agency should be prepared to have some locomotive hauled equipment on their rosters.

Finally, to conclude "on topic of sorts", well we have DMU's, and EMU's - and apparently soon enough HMU's

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:10 am I dunno. Bergen to Oslo on a FLIRT is about 3 hours...

Actually more like 7 hours.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:18 amAt some point, presuming you have "faces in the windows and hind quarters on the seats", it is simply more economical to operate locomotive hauled equipment.

More than 20 years ago, South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority thought that 5 cars was the dividing line with electric propulsion. At 6 cars, definitely a locomotive hauled train, 4 cars should be Multiple Unit.

Now what was very uneconomical was when the Boston & Maine RR disposed of all their locomotives and cars used in Boston area in favor of RDC's (DMU in newspeak), they were operating ten car trains with RDC's. The economics could hardly be favorable.

They did attempt to redeem themselves by purchasing some RDC-9s, no cabs and only 1 motor. Pennsylvania - Reading Seashore Lines also ran 6 or more car RDC trains, but split them at 2 junctions to serve 3 destinations.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:55 am Does METRA run express trains? I'd say, have some coaches (and locomotives) for those, but everything else, DMU.

Let's put some context around Prof Norman's response...

Using the longest line (UP NW) as the benchmark... 19 stations over 62 miles.

17 trains arrive downtown before 0900 -- , 5 are "all stops" and 12 are limited stops.

Rest of the day, it's 14 "all stops" and a almost-every stop cleanup run at the end of the night arriving downtown at 0125.

In the other direction, it's pretty much the same between 1500 and 1900 --- 14 limited stops and 3 "all stops". Rest of the day it's 16 "all stops"....

From an equipment routing perspective, 60-70% of the fleet is used only for those express runs with 9 to 11 cars. They're fully serviced downtown during the day (trash and lavs). Overnight, they get a quick walkthru to pick up trash.

The other 30-40% of the fleet does 50% of the runs as turns thru the day. They run 6-9 cars for locals. I've seen them fill up pre-COVID. They get serviced overnight.

You could use DMU's for that second half of the day, but I'm not sure it's cost justified to have two fleets of equipment vs. a mostly standardized fleet. When things go sideways with winter weather, there's more than enough equipment lying around to run a recovery schedule.

The DMU might be right-sized for lower post-COVID capacity, but do they have the same acceleration as a locomotive hauled coaches?

Can they break thru snow on tracks as easily as a locomotive hauled train? We don't have specialized plow equipment clearing the lines overnight, and I don't know if a DMU would have the weight on drivers to push thru drifts...

How about the noise factor? I rode RDC's daily and the noise was pretty distracting compared to the relative quiet of a locomotive hauled coach.

Two points to raise here; first is that METRA, and any other transit agency out there, best accept "they're never coming back". It is not the agencies' fault (METRA is reputed to be one of the better "servicewise") it is simply that COVID has brought about societal changes such as where knowledge workers - the main customers for commuter rail - need perform such. I'm certain that "powers that be" at METRA know full well to what extent their future ridership will stabilize in the post-COVID era.

That they are not broadcasting such means their projections can only be considered "ominous":

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:22 am The DMU might be right-sized for lower post-COVID capacity, but do they have the same acceleration as a locomotive hauled coaches?

Can they break thru snow on tracks as easily as a locomotive hauled train? We don't have specialized plow equipment clearing the lines overnight, and I don't know if a DMU would have the weight on drivers to push thru drifts...

How about the noise factor? I rode RDC's daily and the noise was pretty distracting compared to the relative quiet of a locomotive hauled coach.

Here Mr. Olesen raises valid points that any agency must consider - especially METRA which is confronted with winter conditions second only to the one serving the Twin Cities.

On the METRA Northwest Line Mr. Olesen notes, the C&NW always operated the first inbound train engine pulling rather than the engine pushing inbounds (maybe METRA does same with their route over the SOO) for just the reason noted.

So long as METRA persists in operating their ridiculous off peak consists (six cars to handle COVID-era maybe a peak of 75 passengers), I would think the locomotive hauled consists would be no match for a DMU.

Now so far as noise, no question it would be an issue. While I've noted here that I have ridden Stadler equipment overseas, such was electrified. My experiences riding RDC's, anywhere from a 1960 fan trip on the CNJ along the Lehigh River (where I first met The Late Mr. Weaver) to the Amtrak set assigned to the Blackhawk, it is all too much like riding a bus - and after all that is what a DMU is; a bus on rails.

However, nothing will top for noise the Ferrovias that were used in Mexico by both the NdeM and the CHP - both of which I've ridden in this life (Cd. Juarez-Chihuahua; Los Mochis-Chihuahua). Hard to believe they were powered with Rolls Royce engines, but then, mufflers are kind of "optional" on motor vehicles down there.

Why are we discussing DMU or EMU trains in and out of Chicago when the thread was about California buying some. It rarely if ever snows in the LA southern California basin nor in San Francisco Bay area. So why the question about snowplow removal? Norway is using these same Stadler FLIRTs has had zero problems with snow, and they get lots of snow.
On trains with consists above 4 standard American sized single level coaches, locomotive hailed coaches are more economical to run, but on train consists of less than 4 standard coaches, DMUs are more economical to run.
DART and TRE did that evaluation more than a decade ago when the TRE was still running RDCs. I posted a link to that report years ago, it is somewhere in these forums. Sorry I do not recall exactly where or even if that url link still works.

It's a tangent to the time and distance component raised on these HMUs serving some of the CA sponsored 2+ hour runs...

I was boots and camera on the ground when CRC brought the first DMU to Texas. It's the right size for a short thin corridor that won't grow much in length or volume. That's why planners are hesitant... who wants to buy something you know will be less suitable 10 years later?

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eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:58 am It's a tangent to the time and distance component raised on these HMUs serving some of the CA sponsored 2+ hour runs...

I was boots and camera on the ground when CRC brought the first DMU to Texas. It's the right size for a short thin corridor that won't grow much in length or volume. That's why planners are hesitant... who wants to buy something you know will be less suitable 10 years later?

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Not distance traveled as much as frequency of operations. Locomotive hauling a long string of coaches during rush hours would look extremely oversized a quarter full between rush hours. That is where the shorter and less capacity DMUs would shine, with half hourly to hourly frequencies. What is best is determined how you plan to operate the trains.
As an aside, most DMUs services in the USA are ran on rail corridors owned by some government agency, with no restrictions of access to the tracks, and can operate at higher frequencies.

When it comes to the expenses of running a service, it is maintenance (and depreciation) that is (By far) the largest expense, not fuel and the other factors that are usually cited as giving the advantage to dmu's. If a dmu costs more to maintain than a locomotive, there is no advantage.

... especially if every DMU is considered an "engine" by the FRA. (Maybe a UK-style 3- or 4-car set would alleviate that problem.)

My questions are simple? Will refueling be needed only at termini? What’s Plan B when there’s a freight wreck and the runs have to be annulled/turned enroute, or the train has a Michigan moment and is held for hours?

This initial order doesn't appear to be for LD or even Amtrak corridor services. The only confirmed operator is San Bernardino County Transportation Authority for service on a 9-mile commuter corridor. My prediction would be that other local commuter operators in CA will be next in line for the Stadler ZEMUs.

In Germany, the Coradia iLint hydrogen-powered trains are running in Lower Saxony. Those trains can travel over 600 miles between fill-ups. The main challenge for the California operators will be sourcing hydrogen. The technology for "green" hydrogen is still several years away from implementation, so the German service is using "gray" hydrogen until hydrogen production technology evolves. The German operators are hoping to convert to "green" hydrogen by 2024.

I'm sure Amtrak will be watching this project carefully, but Stadler's ZEMU is more of a DC-3 than a 747.

So we aren’t talking intercity, in Big LA were talking intra urban.

ADMIN NOTE: Off this goes to California.

"Green" hydrogen has been "right around the corner" for over a decade now.

There's no such thing. Even if you use electricity, it's more efficient to just, you know, use that electricity to drive the train, either via batteries or catenary wire. On a 9-mile route, the capital costs of installing either are probably going to be about the same as the capital costs of setting up hydrogen filling facilities.

I'm glad Toyota finally gave up on their hydrogen dreams, but I guess politicians and transit planners in the US are, as always, about a decade behind.