Berkshire Flyer: Pittsfield - New York City Service via Albany

The Berkshire feasibility study is a typical consultant attempting to please clients special report with information derived to paint a picture that sez yes we can do a train from nyc to pittsfield all based on a series of whatifs, thisses, thatses, not to mention a trainload of swags and graphs.
The initial premise is to compare the "successful" operation of the weekend Cape Cod Flyer between Boston and Hyannis to the proposed Berkshire Flyer from NYC to Pittsfield. The Cape Cod Flyer isn't exactly a sro operation either but, ................there are many people in the city of Boston who are heading to the Cape who actually do want to go to Hyannis by train.
The same logic doesn't work for the Berkshire Flyer because the bulk of the folks who want to go to Berkshire County do not in fact want to go to Pittsfield. Which is to say that while Hyannis is in fact an actual desirable destination for would be rail travelers, Pittsfield is not.
The report also highlights the success of trains going to Freeport Maine from Boston. Make no mistake, I know Freeport Maine, and Pittsfield is no Freeport.
In fairness, the Berkshire report does address the needs for success by looking at providing additional services, changes in infrastructure, possibility of eliminating stops on the empire route, adding transfer transportation services at Pittsfield etc etc. But the bottom line still is the fact that at the end of the ride just about nobody wants to go to or stay in Pittsfield.
As many of us know, if in fact the powers that be In Pittsfield really really want a rail economic lifeline from NYC, then maybe they ought to be looking at talking Mass DOT into working with ConnDOT into rebuilding the line from Danbury to Pittsfield with stops at Great Barrington, Lee, and Lenox. They might not end up with a run away winner with direct service from GCT to Danbury to Pittsfield but at least they wouldn't be betting on the current run away loser on the old B&A.

Safetee wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:49 am The Berkshire feasibility study is a typical consultant attempting to please clients … (edited for brevity by an Admin) .

I think that is so so unlikely. As is Wassaic - Millerton - Chatham which is another option for the Berkshires - could end at Chatham, or continue on to Pittsfield.

Chatham via Albany is too long, but via Millerton is at least direct. Who knows.

It's been a week. SLE has been like two. Let's give these things a chance to bed in and socialize a bit. The improvements on the Albany - Boston line overall in the coming years will benefit this immensely, as would anything Empire south of Albany - although those also ironically make Hudson an ever more appealing hub for the region.

Mr. CLE lest we forget Dover Plains-Chatham was chopped up during '80. Passenger service lasted for about a year after A-Day, as there was a dispute if such was "intercity" or "commuter". A court ruled it was "intercity", Amtrak wanted no part of it, and that was that.

The ruling that it was intercity, came during the day, and at the next station a train enroute put its passengers off - and otherwise "stranded".

Now I'm not certain where those touting Hudson as "the Gateway to the Berkshires" are coming from? NY66 then NY295 are both two lane highways and posted 55mph. The attractions such as Stockbridge, Tanglewood (Lenox), ski lodges, are all along the New Haven, so to get to any of such, be prepared to rent an auto at Pittsfield.

Now really, that consultant's "coloring book" aside, if there is to be meaningful rail service again to the region for its many attractions, it will have to be over a revitalized New Haven. Even the "back in my day" Berkshire Division's 50mph max speed was time competitive with "stuck behind a semi" US 7. Normally, SKS has Alumni Weekends for Classes every five years, but next year is the School's Centenary, and even if out of cycle for my Class, God willing I'm going back. So firsthand I "know all about" US 7 through Litchfield County CT.

Now, Summer '61 after graduation, I accepted an offer from SKS for a Summer Job. One evening, I drove from South Kent to Tanglewood to hear the Boston Symphony - and back. Well, only a 19yo kid with his love of Classical Music would do that, but trust me US7 is no better North of Kent than South of there. Presume Mr. Moore, originally from that area, will agree.

And remember, there will NEVER be an I-289 (think that is what it would be numbered) through Litchfield County.

The question of rail passenger transportation between the New York Metropolitan area and the Berkshire Hills, as a destination reached via Rensselaer and Pittsfield, has produced a clearly sub-optimal "trial" with little chance of success by any measure, IMO. These mid-route points do NOT add value to the market this trial seeks to serve.

The flaw derives from the premise this is "intercity" service and therefore only to be considered as an undertaking for Amtrak. This 50-year-old assumption must be revisited, once the current trial funds are exhausted and the consultants dismissed, who should be complimented for having successfully discovered a scheme that does not - and cannot be made - to work!!

The next trial (if there is one) should be "anchored" at GCT and operated via Danbury (or eventually Brewster and Danbury if a direct connection can be justified). This trial need not necessarily be extended so far as Pittsfield (or MA), IMO, as dedicated connecting bus could be arranged if needed for passengers traveling to/from MA points.

Equipment is a consideration. This service however, at the minimum, should provide for single-seat service and a second daily train operated as incremental extensions of existing service, allowing same-day round-trip travel between both ends.

Are CDOT and MTA listening?

I think the quandary here is how to persuade Massachusetts to spend money on track improvements in Connecticut, and Connecticut to fund improvements to help New Yorkers bring money to Massachusetts. This may require the formation of a bi-state commission to finance and manage the project; just think of the well-paying jobs that would create ...

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:54 pm I think the quandary here is how to persuade Massachusetts to spend money on track improvements in Connecticut, and Connecticut to fund improvements to help New Yorkers bring money to Massachusetts. This may require the formation of a bi-state commission to finance and manage the project; just think of the well-paying jobs that would create ...

Considering what's going on with the MBTA, that will be a bit of a hard sell.

First, it seems like to name any of these "startups" --Flyer is the kiss of death. That statement is based on the reports that, be it Berkshire, Cape, or Valley, none are reported here to be doing all that well.

Now sure I've talked about riding a reincarnated "The Berkshire" to Woodrow, then hiking "up The Hill" to an SKS Class Reunion, but I also know the likelihood of such is that my surname will change from Norman to Methuselah.

But if there EVER WERE to be a restored Berkshire line going the 79 miles Danbury-Pittsfield, only FRA Class 3 would be needed. It will always just be US7 which while four lane expressway to Brookfield, then four lane to New Milford, is two lane 45 mph posted elsewhere in CT. And, again I note, there will never be an I-289.

I understand that there is at least one industry in Canaan, medical device maker Becton Dickinson, that gives "Housy" business handling plastic pellets interchanged from Cheesie at Pittsfield and used in production. So maybe at present it's FRA Class 2.

But trust me volks, you don't want to see that sorry excuse of a railroad around New Milford, Woodrow, and Kent. I understand all they have for business through there is garbage - and they have spilled that "a time or two".

Like many, I suspect this train won't be as successful as predicted, but...
First, I think anytime you have 1/Day once a week, you're going to have a hard time selling it.
Since the train deadheads to Albany Friday night, I think Amtrak should definitely look at turning that into a revenue run and considering timing it so folks can make dinner and theater in Pittsfield.

That said, on one hand, while there's definitely costs and some logistical issues with this extension, it's also pretty simple. Tack on a second engine (and if Amtrak had enough cab cars that could be eliminated) and take an existing train and simply extend it. It's not like it's requiring extra equipment or a great deal of effort for an entirely new route (since the LSL already covers part of it).

And, at the end of the day, honestly, it's Massachusetts money, so as long as they're willing to commit to it for the 2 year trial, I'm willing to see what happens.

There was a "mini-Amtrak" bill in the NY State Legislature, 1971 I believe, that would have kept the Upper Harlem passenger service going. Either Rockefeller vetoed it or it didn't pass, but either way, we'd be in a far better place today had it gone through! My understanding is the Harlem was always the superior route to the NH. With all of the improvements that have been made to the remaining portion of the Harlem in the last 40 years, I'm sure it would be a very successful operation today and this whole issue would be irrelevant. The fact that both the NYC and NH served the Berkshire region to NYC market with competing routes for decades shows it has a place, but it should be more geared to locals and vacationers, and not just weekend getaway travel, as it was in the days of NYC and NH.

Certainly agree, Mr. PC1100.

Back in the days , '54-'56, when I regularly rode White Plains-Millerton (fare: $2.64 ), the Alco RS-3's could get going to 60mph, while the NH Berkshire Div was at best 50. One was laid through a valley, the other along a very winding river (geologists would consider "Housy" to be "young").

With the "New Yorking" (funny how all the "quainty oldy" B&B's have discovered New York prices; my top contenders in that "Rogue's Gallery") of Dutchess and Litchfield as well, had Harlem Div not been chopped up as quickly as it was North of Wassaic, passenger service maybe "all the way" but at least to Millerton, could still be in place operated by Metro-North.

According to an old engineer in the course of a DPU inspection of the Canaan in the mid 70s, in the days of steam they could hit a hundred on a couple of the long tangents.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:57 pm Like many, I suspect this train won't be as successful as predicted, but...
First, I think anytime you have 1/Day once a week, you're going to have a hard time selling it.
Since the train deadheads to Albany Friday night, I think Amtrak should definitely look at turning that into a revenue run and considering timing it so folks can make dinner and theater in Pittsfield.

That said, on one hand, while there's definitely costs and some logistical issues with this extension, it's also pretty simple. Tack on a second engine (and if Amtrak had enough cab cars that could be eliminated) and take an existing train and simply extend it. It's not like it's requiring extra equipment or a great deal of effort for an entirely new route (since the LSL already covers part of it).

And, at the end of the day, honestly, it's Massachusetts money, so as long as they're willing to commit to it for the 2 year trial, I'm willing to see what happens.

The train is now revenue both directions on Fridays and Sundays. The issue of adding time in Pittsfield comes down to CSX and I do not see them willing to play ball unless someone comes up with more $$$$$. On the Amtrak side we in Albany at times barely have enough engines to cover the service we currently run. All it takes is a dual mode or two to act up and its a scramble.
So for now its change ends do your brake tests get your IETMS set up talk to the dispatcher look for the light and get out of Dodge.

Safetee wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:57 am According to an old engineer in the course of a DPU inspection of the Canaan in the mid 70s, in the days of steam they could hit a hundred on a couple of the long tangents.'

Well, Mr. Safetee, such results in this (sorry if paywalled). I was 1 month old, and "not exactly" on board.

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesm ... geNumber=1

fair Use:

SOUTH KENT, Conn., Aug. 28 — Two hundred and fifty-four carefree youngsters returning to New York and New Jersey from vacations passed in three Summer camps in the Berkshire Mountains escaped death or injury today when a six-car special train of the New York, New Haven Hartford Railroad was derailed on a curve here, the engine and the first three coaches plunging into Hatch Pond

There is a "stretch" from where South Kent Road diverges from CT 341 to the curve North end of Hatch Pond where this incident occurred.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:53 am

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:57 pm Like many, I suspect this train won't be as successful as predicted, but...
First, I think anytime you have 1/Day once a week, you're going to have a hard time selling it.
Since the train deadheads to Albany Friday night, I think Amtrak should definitely look at turning that into a revenue run and considering timing it so folks can make dinner and theater in Pittsfield.

That said, on one hand, while there's definitely costs and some logistical issues with this extension, it's also pretty simple. Tack on a second engine (and if Amtrak had enough cab cars that could be eliminated) and take an existing train and simply extend it. It's not like it's requiring extra equipment or a great deal of effort for an entirely new route (since the LSL already covers part of it).

And, at the end of the day, honestly, it's Massachusetts money, so as long as they're willing to commit to it for the 2 year trial, I'm willing to see what happens.

The train is now revenue both directions on Fridays and Sundays. The issue of adding time in Pittsfield comes down to CSX and I do not see them willing to play ball unless someone comes up with more $$$$$. On the Amtrak side we in Albany at times barely have enough engines to cover the service we currently run. All it takes is a dual mode or two to act up and its a scramble.
So for now its change ends do your brake tests get your IETMS set up talk to the dispatcher look for the light and get out of Dodge.

Thanks. Good to know.
Honestly, it's a pretty ride. I could see myself doing a round trip just for the relaxation.

Cape Cod service will eventually succeed because there are only two highway bridges + a barely used railroad bridge to access that giant sand bar and traffic congestion must inevitably increase. In the Berkshires there is room to widen highways, build bypasses, bridges & underpasses to relieve choke points.