Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:19 pmA direct connection to the Harlem would be way less of an engineering challenge than the Hudson, for what it's worth. You wouldn't necessarily need to take land, either.

Assuming the line is on top of or next to I-287, you could build a connection that branches off at Exit 5, runs 2-3k feet on a viaduct over Tarrytown Road, crosses in front of the County Center, bridges the Bronx River and joins the Harlem just north of the White Plains station. A light rail operation wouldn't even need to be elevated-- you could just run down the Tarrytown Rd. median to a terminus next to the White Plains station.

Yup. The Harlem Line makes infinitely more sense than the Hudson Line plan, and ends up taking about the same amount of time. The Suffern-Port Chester line should be built along 287, mostly it would need to be elevated, with 25kV/60 power. The Hudson Line should also be electrified from Highbridge to Poughkeepsie with 25Kv/60 replacing third rail Highbridge-Croton.

The Harlem Line needs some serious capacity improvements to White Plains, but the capacity into GCT isn't an issue, both due to some trains from the New Haven Line being diverted to Penn, a few future diversions from the Hudson Line, as well as the fact that trains to White Plains could be extended to Suffern, using the same slots they use today. The whole Hudson Line needs to be upgraded for 12-car sets at full power/speed.

Your concept would work (except for the light rail part), but it's not really needed, the tie-in could be done directly on a tight loop down from 287 to the existing Harlem Line ROW north of White Plains.

There's a bunch of office parks and strip malls and such right along the 287 corridor that with careful planning could have pedestrian infrastructure to tie them to stations, or redeveloped as denser TOD.

I'd run it all the way to Stamford; lots of traffic between Stamford and White Plains.

The challenge is where to site a White Plains station for the Suffern-Stamford service that's useful to White Plains, as 287 is a bit north of White Plains proper. A station on the Northeast side of White Plains with a small streetcar/light rail circulator through downtown proper might work. I think the primary draw for the line would still be direct service to GCT.

Suffern itself provides some challenges as to how to structure that service for transfers coming down from PJ, but that's another issue from the 287 corridor.

You don't need to go via White Plains; you could run down the median on 87, duck down to the BN siding, and connect at Morris Heights. It's tricky WoH because of the grades; they could obviate most by using the Suffern Succotash Industrial. 287 is tricky though; no room, so that has to be elevated beyond White Plains until you can get to Westchester Avenue and then onto the New Haven to Stamford. You only really need one track. No matter what, though, it's needed, and it was short-sited for Randy Andy to not include it.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:36 pmYou don't need to go via White Plains; you could run down the median on 87, duck down to the BN siding, and connect at Morris Heights. It's tricky WoH because of the grades; they could obviate most by using the Suffern Succotash Industrial. 287 is tricky though; no room, so that has to be elevated beyond White Plains until you can get to Westchester Avenue and then onto the New Haven to Stamford. You only really need one track. No matter what, though, it's needed, and it was short-sited for Randy Andy to not include it.

White Plains still makes the most sense to drop onto the existing Harlem Line, which needs to be rebuilt with more capacity anyway. How bad are the grades? What could M-8 cars handle? They are traction limited, not horsepower limited. Without freight, EMUs should be able to do steeper grades.

I'd hate to see single track, even just for the ~6.5 miles from White Plains to Port Chester, as that causes delays to cascade a lot more than double track. I think there is a lot of regional transportation value in connecting to STM, especially if there are also connecting stations to the Lower Harlem and Hudson Lines.

The cost of rail would be above and beyond realistic.

Run a bus along the route - perhaps an upgraded I Bus that runs Stamford to Rockland County.
If any capital improvement is needed, build ramps and bus stations along I 287/I 87.
Perhaps a regular route and another route that operates to Westchester airport.

A bus route is not the answer and is incapable of providing the service needs of WOH communities. The Cuomo bridge rail link would absolutely need to go to NYC, not white plains or Stamford. The need of the people in WOH is to go to NYC.

The rail link should one day run up 87 to the CSX river line in Nyack and run up the line to service nyack, haverstraw, highland falls, Cornwall on hudson, Newburgh and up to Kingston. There is a massive lack of connectivity from NYC to those regions and a service that would draw not only more than enough daily commuters to justify the service, but would pull large tourism ridership and air travel if you set up a link to a growing SWF at Newburgh. Not to mention this would rapidly accelerate the revitalization beginning in these areas. Yes it’s expensive, there’s no way around it, yes there’s massive work to do with CSX and everything else that would block this project. However, this would be the single most transformative piece of infrastructure NY state could add.

Agree about WOH peersons needing service to NY City. Have not been to Stewart airport in years but there were clearance issues with a large hill south of the E - W runway. Has that hill been removed as work on removing it was an ongoing multi year project. As I understood it once the hill is / was gone ILS minimums can be reduced to CAT - II.

I'd beef up and electrify the existing ferry services at Newburgh and Haverstraw. There just isn't enough density to warrant regional or commuter rail service north of Haverstraw. Nyack and Spring Valley should be the targets, linking up with the PJ service at Suffern, providing connections at Suffern, White Plains, and Port Chester at a minimum. The PJ line should be re-routed via the old Erie Main. Forking service too much dilutes service unless the fork can be turned into a shuttle.

Spring Valley and Suffern should also get better service via NJT by improving electric ferry service at Hoboken, putting the other half of the Waterfront connection in place, building the loop at Secaucus, and the Gateway tunnels, allowing a full balancing of NJT service between the two terminals across all lines. Improving LIRR service to LIC with an improved terminal, BQX connection, and electric ferry service along with re-balancing LIRR traffic between the four terminals, removing MSG, rebuilding Penn, expanding trackage at Penn, and implementing run-through service with CDOT would all serve to free up Penn capacity for better service via NJT as well.

Basically, everything is linked together because of NYP.

Perhaps you aren’t as familiar with the area, but there’s more than enough density north of Havrstraw to justify daily commenting. Also, nobody wants to hop on a ferry and then take a 2 hour train ride on top of it with other needed subway or taxi connections once arriving in NYC.
That density mentioned is also rapidly growing. People from NYC are moving to Orange County and the hudson valley in droves, this has only been accelerated from the pandemic. Not to mention the earlier points about that part of NY rapidly revitalizing and growing and the real estate opportunities that are plentiful along that line. The demand is more than there.

For Stewart airport - a rail link is not necessarily needed, especially if the Newburgh stop on the west shore line had a quick shuttle bus connection to the airport, this would provide a quick and convenient connection.

Also, the Port Jervis line does not meet the needs of Orange County or the hudson valley. It doesn’t even pass through the important communities that the west shore line would benefit from. It’s still important for growth of the region however. It provides a route to Penn station, while the west shore would serve grand central.

Perhaps people don't realize two separate train lines run to NY from Rockland county already on existing infrastructure (passenger rail). People say connect to the Hudson line but as one can see, the express from Pearl River takes an hour and a one or two stop from Suffern takes an hour or perhaps just under an hour.
Why add infrastructure when two routes already exist already?

I guess a third route along the existing freight line is possible but it can go into New Jersey like the other two routes

There's basically nothing between Haverstraw and Newburgh, with West Point being it's own little world that isn't going to drive much daily commutation traffic. At best, you're talking a hour even from Spring Valley to Penn Station if the connecting loop existed, often a bit longer. The run from White Plains to Grand Central is 41 minutes, so extending out to Nyack isn't too crazy of an idea. I suppose you could fork the service and have a branch up to Haverstraw, but the ferry/train combined takes 1:11 to get to GCT, the direct rail service to Haverstraw would probably actually take a bit longer, and would remove the future option to go to Penn via the West Side Connection like exists today with the ferry. The same scenario plays out at Nerburgh and Beacon, which is the only concentration of population north of Haverstraw.

Ferries are underused in NYC today, which is strange considering how important they were early on in providing transportation to and from the city, and eventually making the city what it is today. Beefed up electric ferry service from Newburgh and Haverstraw would be great for those particular use cases, while a rebuilt LIC and increased electric ferry service there, along with increased electric ferry service from Hoboken would be hugely beneficial to the rail system in the region as a whole. There are some other possibilities for electric ferry service from various suburbs, as has been tried on Long Island, along with a high-speed catamaran replacing the stupid flights from JFK to MVY and ACK.

What makes sense for the Mario Cuomo rail service is going straight over to Suffern- that's where the population is, along with a connection to the PJ service.

Also, the Port Jervis line does not meet the needs of Orange County or the hudson valley. It doesn’t even pass through the important communities that the west shore line would benefit from. It’s still important for growth of the region however. It provides a route to Penn station, while the west shore would serve grand central.

PJ should be re-routed on the old Erie Main and off of the Moodna Viaduct for a more direct route. Today's PJ gets kind of useless beyond Salisbury Mills/Cornwall, and Harriman is acting as a huge park and ride for the old Erie Main with a significant drive to the station.

The only places of any size that the West Side Line would pass through are Haverstraw and Newburgh, so it's not providing any useful new service. Newburgh would actually have faster service with electric ferries and electrification of the Hudson Line up to Poughkeepsie and Albany.

Train322 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:27 amPerhaps people don't realize two separate train lines run to NY from Rockland county already on existing infrastructure (passenger rail). People say connect to the Hudson line but as one can see, the express from Pearl River takes an hour and a one or two stop from Suffern takes an hour or perhaps just under an hour.
Why add infrastructure when two routes already exist already?

It makes a lot of sense to provide a direct route to White Plains, Stamford, and most importantly, Grand Central from Nyack, Spring Valley, and Suffern. There are also a few office parks along the line, and potentials for redevelopment along a Suffern-Port Chester Line, along with significant network connectivity resulting from a cross-platform connection to the to PJ at Suffern and a streetcar or light rail in White Plains, along with direct rail connections to the Harlem to GCT and New Haven to Stamford and New Haven. It's probably technically possible to build a connecting station to the Hudson Line with some giant elevators/stairs to connect the platforms, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot of benefit to such a setup.

But at what cost.
You can do anything if money is no question but money is not unlimited.
What would the cost be to add rail to the bridge with a link to the Hudson line, and is it even possible with respect to land to have it ramp down. (on both sides of the bridge).

And to run in the I 287 ROW, does that road have room?

Train322 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:02 pm But at what cost.
You can do anything if money is no question but money is not unlimited.
What would the cost be to add rail to the bridge with a link to the Hudson line, and is it even possible with respect to land to have it ramp down. (on both sides of the bridge).

And to run in the I 287 ROW, does that road have room?

A lot of it would have to be elevated in the median. The cost problem isn't unique to this project- the cost of construction in the US and especially the NYC area is totally out of control.

There have been proposals floated around to connect to the Hudson, but it really makes no sense. The logical connection is to the Harlem at White Plains.

While it's definitely needed for NYC it's also sorely needed for White Plains and Stamford. I dare you to sit in 287 traffic at ANY time of the day! For NYC run it down the 87 median to BN; there's no need for connections at Tarrytown. It would be too difficult.

The grades would be tough, but definitely could be handled. I think it's just better to use the Suffern Industrial.

It would be really nice to have service over the PJ directly to Westchester. Transfer at Suffern.

I also agree that West Shore service is sorely needed, and they should restore the old NYNJ to Nyack. You could extend the PJ up to the West Shore as well.

West Point would be a better destination for Amtrak to Schenectady.

I agree with extending electrification on the Hudson Line.