Valley Flyer operations question

OK, so I've spending a little time, maybe two much time, watching a couple live railcams and have a question about the Valley Flyer moves. Last night, May 16, Valley Flyer 494, led by Amtrak 99, left Springfield at 9:15 p.m., and crossed the diamond at 9:22 pm. The trip to Greenfield is an 1:08 minutes, but loco 99 returned to Springfield at 10:35 p.m.

The train status shows an actual arrival in Northampton at 9:49, 9 minutes early, but no actual arrival time for Greenfield. I assume the train had no passengers north of Northampton and so turned around and headed back to base. Is that right? How often does that happen? Do the trains often arrive at Northampton empty too?

tR

The valley flyer is not flying the way the powers that be would have preferred. A combination of; not a whole lot of interest going to nyc with exception of holidays, much cheaper bus service readily available, too many stops train service, covid, and last but not least much faster access, easier scheduling, more convenient to the big apple in your non covid problematic air conditioned suv .

Safetee wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 11:08 am The valley flyer is not flying the way the powers that be would have preferred. A combination of; not a whole lot of interest going to nyc with exception of holidays, much cheaper bus service readily available, too many stops train service, covid, and last but not least much faster access, easier scheduling, more convenient to the big apple in your non covid problematic air conditioned suv .

Eh, just wait until they hit Big Apple traffic.

travelrobb wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 10:20 am OK, so I've spending a little time, maybe two much time, watching a couple live railcams and have a question about the Valley Flyer moves. Last night, May 16, Valley Flyer 494, led by Amtrak 99, left Springfield at 9:15 p.m., and crossed the diamond at 9:22 pm. The trip to Greenfield is an 1:08 minutes, but loco 99 returned to Springfield at 10:35 p.m.

The train status shows an actual arrival in Northampton at 9:49, 9 minutes early, but no actual arrival time for Greenfield. I assume the train had no passengers north of Northampton and so turned around and headed back to base. Is that right? How often does that happen? Do the trains often arrive at Northampton empty too?

tR

Yes, if they get to Northampton (major stop with all the universities nearby) and no one's left on the train, they return back to Springfield.

Traffic into the Large Apple, and of course parking! But they can drive south to Springfield or further south and have a better selection of trains, right? Of course $6 gasoline may change a few people's minds.

And then there's the hound and peter pan offering hamp to nyc fares of 28 to 36 vs average of 65 on the train,

Safetee wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 5:50 am And then there's the hound and peter pan offering hamp to nyc fares of 28 to 36 vs average of 65 on the train,

I'll pay a few more bucks for the train any day or even pay the $5/gallon than torture myself with a bus ride. Though admittedly while I do live in Holyoke I drive to Springfield to hop the train with the better options rather than use the Holyoke platform. (Also not much longer of a drive given I live seconds from the I-91 onramp.)

One of the problems for the flyer is that not all the valley residents are rail fans and there are in fact viable bus alternatives to the train both in terms of fares and travel times..

Safetee wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:09 am One of the problems for the flyer is that not all the valley residents are rail fans and there are in fact viable bus alternatives to the train both in terms of fares and travel times..

True not everyone in the Valley are railfans. But it's also true that there are a number of people that would consider a train but not a bus that aren't railfans. Rail is much more comfortable and it gets you off the road - Greyhound and Peter Pan are sardine cans. Intercity bus has its place as a cheap alternative to avoid driving but it's nowhere near as relaxing and as a result there's differences in the customer base - I'm sure there's some overlap but there's also unique aspects of both's ridership. While the bus is always pointed to by those who think rail is a boondoggle, many intercity rail riders aren't going to shift over to the bus if you take the option away - many are just going to drive. Obviously whether one feels offering the option to those of us that will take a train but not a bus is worth the taxpayer money is the million dollar debate. While admittedly the 495/478 Flyers aren't doing much business - the weekend Flyers and the weekday 471/494 are doing enough to justify their extension up to Greenfield in my opinion.

well if the ride was scenic, or if the train was faster say 2.5 hours from greenfield to nyc , or the train had perks like a dining car or a dome car then you could justify the higher fare. folks who want to go to nyc might even be inspired to say let's take the train.

The reality is very little of the flyer row is scenic. The bus times are just about the same or better as the train. A snack car is better than nothing but it's not a dining car. On weekends the Greenfield station is closed.

I personally like the train any train any time. In my mind, or what's left of it, the key to achieving better passenger train patronage is getting people who have never considered taking a train in the past to actually see the train as a viable desirable alternative to their pov or bus. The flyer as is today does not have a whole lot of ride me incentives.

Speaking of the Valley Flyer and buses, does anyone know if Peter Pan has an official monopoly on the Springfield Union Station bus terminal? I just looked at bus service Springfield - NYC and it appears that Greyhound is just using a street bus stop near the old Amtrak entrance. Of course, it could be their cost-cutting wherever they have competition; they've sold their building here in Portland and are now using a parking lot downtown for their few trips/day.

Greyhound was one of the original Union Station tenants. i haven't a clue if they're still renting or vacated. I believe that Greyhound is the low cost carrier from springfield to nyc.

I do wonder a bit why Mass subsidizes a train that seems best scheduled for taking people out of the state rather than into it. Are a lot of the riders commuters, who live in Mass because of the train (or have a better job because of the train), and bring money back into the state? Or is it mostly a way of helping people go spend money in other states? Where do the riders from north of Springfield mostly go to? NYC? Connecticut locations? Springfield? On the weekends, does the train bring day- and weekend-trippers up from CT and/or NYC to spend money in Northampton and Greenfield and whatnot?

I apologize for asking questions that probably have clear answers published someplace, but I don't have a clue of where to start looking, and someone usually has a good answer here and seems happy to share it.

in short, i'm not sure. the whole premise for all the knowledge corridor valley flyer trains was "we have this nice branny new railroad track to run on. lets see how many people going to new york who we can lure from their cars to take a train instead.".

i am pretty sure that there is not much cycling between western mass stations.

i assume that much of the passenger load is from northampton to nyc and consists largely of students from the five college area.

the transport wizards thought that business type people might use the early morning service for same day business commuting to and fro. I sincerely doubt that is happening too much, but frankly I dont really know.

and new yorkers coming via train to the valley to frolic in our fields and eat gobs of hadley grass while chugging a glass of apple wine? If there's more than one of those a month I believe that it would be worthy of seven cartwheels.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:51 am

Safetee wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:09 am One of the problems for the flyer is that not all the valley residents are rail fans and there are in fact viable bus alternatives to the train both in terms of fares and travel times..

True not everyone in the Valley are railfans. But it's also true that there are a number of people that would consider a train but not a bus that aren't railfans. Rail is much more comfortable and it gets you off the road - Greyhound and Peter Pan are sardine cans. Intercity bus has its place as a cheap alternative to avoid driving but it's nowhere near as relaxing and as a result there's differences in the customer base - I'm sure there's some overlap but there's also unique aspects of both's ridership. While the bus is always pointed to by those who think rail is a boondoggle, many intercity rail riders aren't going to shift over to the bus if you take the option away - many are just going to drive. Obviously whether one feels offering the option to those of us that will take a train but not a bus is worth the taxpayer money is the million dollar debate. While admittedly the 495/478 Flyers aren't doing much business - the weekend Flyers and the weekday 471/494 are doing enough to justify their extension up to Greenfield in my opinion.

Also, many MANY smaller cities have lost intercity buses, entirely.